Enforcers and Protesters Clash

**Tuff Gong** · 06-24-2009, 09:39 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=neutral]However,....there has also been not one shred of evidence that the votes were rigged,

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">That is not true</span>. But that does not concern us in this debate because<span style="font-weight: bold"> all Western Governments have said they have no evidence</span>, Commentators have been </div></div>

Well that really was my point,...no one has come up with any valid evidence. </div></div>
...but that is not important at this point because the demonstration over the outcome is in Iran organized by Iranians. Western Governments are not saying the vote is one way or the other but to keep saying or hinting that they are is not right.

**neutral** · 06-24-2009, 09:40 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However,....there has also been not one shred of evidence that the votes were rigged,</div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">That is not true</span>. But that does not concern us in this debate because all Western Governments have said they have no evidence, Commentators have been measured as well but even the ones that look at the evidence have very careful not to draw any conclusion beyond what the evidence.

So to continue to claim that there is outside influence is madness and/or dishonesty.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and IF those protesters used the same protesting methods in ANY wetern countries then the crackdown would be no less brutal,...there are a lot of hypocrisy where this matter is concerned,and there is no denying it. </div></div>

That is not quite true either, even in the most recent cases where the beaten were employed in USA and Britain to put down local riots and/or protests, they were no proof of torture or live rounds been employed.

</div></div>

Admittedly no torture or live rounds,...but the putdowns has been <span style="font-weight: bold">almost</span> as brutal,using more subtle methods,..but just as effective while trying to give the impression of allowing freedom of expression.

**neutral** · 06-24-2009, 09:50 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=neutral]SO with this in mind do you really think the rich folks have any justification for stirring up trouble except to advance their own self interests and maintain the status quo...?

First you must define stirring up trouble?
And what is this about the rich I thought you said the middle class and the rich?
Secondly you allude to the Cuban Revolution and the leaders, are you saying they were stirring up trouble?
</div></div>

Ok,let me clarify,I think we have some translation problem as here in the UK middle class are also defined as moneyed folks.
Secondly when I say stirring up trouble I mean agitating and engaging the security forces in a way that escalates the problems,and also to make it seems to outsiders that the security forces are the bad guys,...so far I have seen no newsworthy article concentrating on the job of the security forces and the immense pressure THEY are under to maintain the peace.
To get back to the cuban thing I do think there are parallels,but not to suggest the leaders were stirring up trouble,just pointing out that the actions of the moneyed class were not for the greater good,...as is shown by their reaction when the poorer folks fetched up off the coast of florida.

**neutral** · 06-24-2009, 09:53 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Western Governments are not saying the vote is one way or the other but to keep saying or hinting that they are is not right. </div></div>

But that is to say,..in western parlance,that the votes didnt go the way <span style="font-weight: bold">they</span> wanted them to.

**Tuff Gong** · 06-24-2009, 10:44 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Western Governments are not saying the vote is one way or the other but to keep saying or hinting that they are is not right. </div></div>

But that is to say,..in western parlance,that the votes didnt go the way <span style="font-weight: bold">they</span> wanted them to. </div></div>

I don't see it as the way they did not want I more see it as they are saying significant number of Iranians think that <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">sum-ting wong</span>!

**Tuff Gong** · 06-24-2009, 10:55 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok,let me clarify,I think we have some translation problem as here in the UK middle class are also defined as moneyed folks.</div></div>

LOL at one time if you could afford a car in England you were part of the Moneyed Class. Until the 80s mass private ownership of property in London was unheard of. I remember a GF of mine in the 80s working at the Council and dabbling in Real Estate, she was able to live a life that her senior mangers could not dream of.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Secondly when I say stirring up trouble I mean agitating and engaging the security forces in a way that escalates the problems,and also to make it seems to outsiders that the security forces are the bad guys,...</div></div>
In Iran right now the State and the Security Forces are the bad guys. The Koran allows peaceful assembly as long as you are not insulting Islam. The protest were remarkably peaceful some were even conducted in silence. The Republic of Iran did not take long to use violence against the protestors. No the toothpaste is out of the tube and it unlikely that the State of Iran will get such a clear and easy shot at its Citizens in the future without much bloodshed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To get back to the cuban thing I do think there are parallels,but not to suggest the leaders were stirring up trouble,just pointing out that the actions of the moneyed class were not for the greater good,...as is shown by their reaction when the poorer folks fetched up off the coast of florida. </div></div>

I cannot say that. The corrupt Rich and the very poor left Cuba early and often during the time of the Revolution.
The Middle and upper Class allied with the poor were directly involved in the Revolution. Castro and Che were not exactly dirt poor!

**rudemonk** · 06-24-2009, 11:16 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...so far I have seen no newsworthy article concentrating on the job of the security forces and the immense pressure THEY are under to maintain the peace.</div></div>

but neutral the rhetoric from the state has been clear- they have constantly and consistently threatened *any* gathering or protest, peaceable or not they don't care...they began attempts to suppress from the jump.

I think, from what I have seen and read, that the protests are very much a reaction against the title holder- nobody is revolting against the supreme leader, or the council, for example...it seems almost like they are taking great pains to say they want their system as it is to work like it has been told to them it will....

**Tuff Gong** · 06-24-2009, 11:17 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">7:51 PM ET --</span> "We are at a critical point! An Iranian blogger posts a "request to Iranians outside Iran."

And the Iranian on Twitter known as PersianKiwi, who has been posting virtually non-stop for the last week and a half, posted a final ominous message tonight at around 9PM Iran time:

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">they catch ppl with mobile - so many killed today - so many injured - Allah Akbar - they take one of us </span>

they pull away the dead into trucks - like factory - no human can do this - we beg Allah for save us -

Everybody is under arrest & cant move - Mousavi - Karroubi even rumour Khatami is in house guardwe must go - dont know when we can get internet - they take 1 of us, they will torture and get names - now we must move fast -

thank you ppls 4 supporting Sea of Green - pls remember always our martyrs - Allah Akbar - Allah Akbar - Allah Akbar

Allah - you are the creator of all and all must return to you - Allah Akbar -

**f0rTyLeGz** · 06-24-2009, 11:45 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However,....there has also been not one shred of evidence that the votes were rigged......</div></div>
<span style="color: #FF0000">June 22, 2009</span>
<span style="font-size: 14pt">Iran admits 50 cities had more votes than voters</span>

In 50 Iranian cities the number of votes cast in this month presidential election exceeded the number of eligible voters, the state's election watchdog admitted today.

The surprising admission by the Guardian Council was, however, designed to undermine the claims of the defeated candidates that the vote was rigged.

Mir Hossein Mousavi, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's main rival in the hotly-disputed election, and the other two losing candidates have claimed that the vote exceeded eligible voters in as many as 170 districts.

Latest news & breaking headlines

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6553843.ece

The latest breaking UK, US, world, business and sport news from The Times and The Sunday Times. Go beyond today's headlines with in-depth analysis and comment.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Also Abinamijahd released the tally 4 hours after the election. 40 MILLION paper ballots tallied in 4 hours. And he won 2 to 1.

**rudemonk** · 06-24-2009, 11:53 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">7:51 PM ET --</span> "We are at a critical point! An Iranian blogger posts a "request to Iranians outside Iran."

And the Iranian on Twitter known as PersianKiwi, who has been posting virtually non-stop for the last week and a half, posted a final ominous message tonight at around 9PM Iran time:

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">they catch ppl with mobile - so many killed today - so many injured - Allah Akbar - they take one of us </span>

they pull away the dead into trucks - like factory - no human can do this - we beg Allah for save us -

Everybody is under arrest & cant move - Mousavi - Karroubi even rumour Khatami is in house guardwe must go - dont know when we can get internet - they take 1 of us, they will torture and get names - now we must move fast -

thank you ppls 4 supporting Sea of Green - pls remember always our martyrs - Allah Akbar - Allah Akbar - Allah Akbar

Allah - you are the creator of all and all must return to you - Allah Akbar -

</div></div>

a call was put out for people on twitter to change their location to Tehran, in attempt to stymie efforts to locate protestors.

I forget who was on John Stewart the other night but it was the son of an Iranian figure of import, and he was explaining that many people simply go missing, and are interred, their families, and held for decades...

**Dr.Dudd** · 06-25-2009, 09:34 AM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">7:51 PM ET --</span> "We are at a critical point! An Iranian blogger posts a "request to Iranians outside Iran."

And the Iranian on Twitter known as PersianKiwi, who has been posting virtually non-stop for the last week and a half, posted a final ominous message tonight at around 9PM Iran time:

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">they catch ppl with mobile - so many killed today - so many injured - Allah Akbar - they take one of us </span>

they pull away the dead into trucks - like factory - no human can do this - we beg Allah for save us -

Everybody is under arrest & cant move - Mousavi - Karroubi even rumour Khatami is in house guardwe must go - dont know when we can get internet - they take 1 of us, they will torture and get names - now we must move fast -

thank you ppls 4 supporting Sea of Green - pls remember always our martyrs - Allah Akbar - Allah Akbar - Allah Akbar

Allah - you are the creator of all and all must return to you - Allah Akbar -

</div></div>

a call was put out for people on twitter to change their location to Tehran, in attempt to stymie efforts to locate protestors.

I forget who was on John Stewart the other night but it was the son of an Iranian figure of import, and he was explaining that <span style="font-weight: bold">many people simply go missing, and are interred, their families, and held for decades...</span> </div></div> Wow, so they copy the USA right dowm to the patriot act eh?!!
I wonder if they listen to all the phone calls,a and secretly search peopl's homes without any notice,or admission that they do it like they legally do under the patriots act too??

**Tuff Gong** · 06-25-2009, 12:12 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, so they copy the USA right dowm to the patriot act eh?!!
I wonder if they listen to all the phone calls,a and secretly search peopl's homes without any notice,or admission that they do it like they legally do under the patriots act too?? </div></div>

Again it must be a sign of madness that you keep referencing all events in Iran forward to the USA and keep drawing phantom equivalencies. Are you that stupid or that crazy which on?

**rudemonk** · 06-25-2009, 01:07 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

I can't think of a time the US shut down communication systems in their entirety just because people peaceably took to the streets.

You can't just cherry pick one or two things that have the remotest similarity- and here I'm assuming you mean the Patriot Act's eavesdropping and snooping is being compared to Iran's security forces monitoring and using communications from electronic devices to locate and arrest people- it's too slippery a slope and there isn't really the kind of equivalence you are trying to make. Say whatever you want about the Patriot Act- there is a lot to criticize about it- but some of the more popular criticisms are somewhat unfounded.

This kettle of fish is definitely being brought to boil in an Iranian fashion.

**Tuff Gong** · 06-25-2009, 02:03 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">12:33 PM ET -- </span>Careless murder. Al Jazeera airs some of the clearest, close-up footage I've seen showing basiji on a roof, firing weapons indiscriminately down into the street. It appears about 1 minute in, and is followed by an interview with YouTube political director Steve Grove.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RkNWV3BnpRI&feature=player_embedded"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RkNWV3BnpRI&feature=player_embedded" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

**Tuff Gong** · 06-25-2009, 10:16 PM

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">4:49 PM ET --</span> Blogging in Iran. An Iranian-American sends over this cartoon:

Enforcers and Protesters Clash

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