Enforcers and Protesters Clash

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK......What are they trying to do?? Out do US?? </div></div>
I think they are torturing folks just a corrupt States do worldwide. </div></div> So what bring it up?
It seem such a common uccurence,it probably is carried out as a sport over there too...

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK......What are they trying to do?? Out do US?? </div></div>
I think they are torturing folks just a corrupt States do worldwide. </div></div> So what bring it up?
It seem such a common uccurence,it probably is carried out as a sport over there too... </div></div>

.... err what do you mean?
Are you saying it <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">not relevant</span> to the thread, but made up stuff and tangential comparisons to every historical violent protest <span style="font-style: italic">(or protests that have been put down violently)</span> in the USA is relevant?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">3:07 PM ET --</span> &quot;Bullets Versus Facebook, Power Versus Dignity... Who Wins?&quot; Via Andrew, a new message from Mousavi's Facebook page:

Guns versus 'the greatness of God'; armed forces versus mobile phones, batons versus mourning, lies versus cameras, state-run television versus twitter, bullets versus Facebook, power versus dignity... who wins?

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">3:04 PM ET --</span> The full CNN interview. Reader William passes along CNN's complete interview with an Iranian student emotionally recounting the brutal violence she'd seen at a demonstration today in Tehran.

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<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">2:23 PM ET --</span> Mousavi legal adviser reportedly arrested. An Iranian journalist on Twitter reports, &quot;Ardeshir Amir Arjman, who is in charge of Mousavi campain's [sic] legal matters is arrested.&quot;

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">2:08 PM ET -- </span>Firing at crowds. This video, uploaded three days ago but apparently not widely viewed, seems to show the Basij paramilitaries firing shots at a crowd of people. Near the end, as the camera shifts right, you can make out uniformed police beating some members of the crowd.
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<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">2:05 PM ET --</span> Neda's family forced out. Via my colleague Stuart Whatley, the Guardian reports:

The Iranian authorities have ordered the family of Neda Agha Soltan out of their Tehran home after shocking images of her death were circulated around the world.

Neighbours said that her family no longer lives in the four-floor apartment building on Meshkini Street, in eastern Tehran, having been forced to move since she was killed. The police did not hand the body back to her family, her funeral was cancelled, she was buried without letting her family know and the government banned mourning ceremonies at mosques, the neighbours said.

&quot;We just know that they [the family] were forced to leave their flat,&quot; a neighbour said. The Guardian was unable to contact the family directly to confirm if they had been forced to leave

[rudemonk]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

at least they did not add more insult to more injury and charge her family for the bullet as I remember reading in this thread they did for another young man they shot when his family went to retrieve him.

[Morpheous]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And if the gentle nudge through th egrape vine don;t work. They simply get a trumped up charge of corruotiin or an accident.
But in thes powerful countries, it is deal with more sophisticated than countries like Iran is able to do.</div></div>
This is my point Doc. Many are being hypocritical to recognise the flaws in iranian politics but fail to recognise or speak out with the same conviction and vigor of those in the west.

America and the uk cannot preach to iran or any other country given its history of foreign policies. America in my view is much more free as a society than the uk. The uk must have the most cctv than any other country in the world for its size. Movements in uk and freedom of speech is increasingly restricted in the uk with radical plans for id cards, gov database systems as well as dna database systems for every man women and child in the uk. Things look bleak like something out of a sci-fi movie where the citizens are prisoners in their own country.

Iran is not perfect and maybe the elections is questionable but I would not cover my ears and shout blah blah blah when questions are also raised that there are possibilities that the west and the uk has had their hand in meddling in irans internal and political affairs. The current leader is not liked but tolerated. If he was loved and adored as their poodle the west would all be singing in unison that they recognise his victory in a fair election.

Politics is a dirty business and those involved in it are soiled and corrupt - The devil calling his peers evil an irony and in my eyes they are all devils. The iranian opposition is more pro west so that is why the west would love him in power instead. One military base in Iraq next to iran you would think the west would be happy with that conquest.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">at least they did not add more insult to more injury and charge her family for the bullet as I remember reading in this thread they did for another young man they shot when his family went to retrieve him. </div></div>
Well they did not give up the body so they figured no need to charge for bullets.

[neutral]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And if the gentle nudge through th egrape vine don;t work. They simply get a trumped up charge of corruotiin or an accident.
But in thes powerful countries, it is deal with more sophisticated than countries like Iran is able to do.</div></div>
This is my point Doc. Many are being hypocritical to recognise the flaws in iranian politics but fail to recognise or speak out with the same conviction and vigor of those in the west.

America and the uk cannot preach to iran or any other country given its history of foreign policies. America in my view is much more free as a society than the uk. The uk must have the most cctv than any other country in the world for its size. Movements in uk and freedom of speech is increasingly restricted in the uk with radical plans for id cards, gov database systems as well as dna database systems for every man women and child in the uk. Things look bleak like something out of a sci-fi movie where the citizens are prisoners in their own country.

Iran is not perfect and maybe the elections is questionable but I would not cover my ears and shout blah blah blah when questions are also raised that there are possibilities that the west and the uk has had their hand in meddling in irans internal and political affairs. The current leader is not liked but tolerated. If he was loved and adored as their poodle the west would all be singing in unison that they recognise his victory in a fair election.

Politics is a dirty business and those involved in it are soiled and corrupt - The devil calling his peers evil an irony and in my eyes they are all devils. The iranian opposition is more pro west so that is why the west would love him in power instead. One military base in Iraq next to iran you would think the west would be happy with that conquest. </div></div>


I very much concur with all you`ve said,and that was my point at the beginning of the thread,I really dont mind being proved wrong in my original analysis that these so-called protests are politically motivated by outside influences,I only hope other countries arent fuelling the protests and keep well out of it.
However, I know for sure that if these protests were carried out anywhere in the west they would have been met with just as much force as is being shown right now,maybe not with real bullets,but at some point plastic bullets would be implemented.

None of us for sure can say with conviction that the election was rigged,and as yet there has beeen absolutely no proof of any rigging,but I personally think that mousavi and his supporters are just poor losers,and the west would love nothing better than to see an escalation in the violence and a destabilisation of Iran,...despite their handwringing about the level of violence used by the security forces,....it`s very convenient for western countries with a grudge against iran to use this issue to shore up support for a regime change.

[neutral]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It seems pretty clear to me that enough Iranians felt that they were screwed at the election process... and that has led to protests, that led to heavy handed secret police confrontations, that has led to riots, which led to shooting unarmed protesters, and closing down the country. </div></div>

What is interesting though is that the majority of the people who feel they were screwed at the election process are affluent middle class intellectuals,it`s always interesting when a country is going through changes that it is usually these kind of people who are more likely to vehemently protest for change,...is it because THEY have more to lose.

The cuban revolution springs to mind,same scenario,same response, and the subsequent flight to the US,..with the support of the Us government,...also of noteworthy is the response of these same affluent folks when less affluent fellow cubans landed in florida,...seems the revolution is always about protecting the status quo,keeping the hoi poloi where they belong,...and in iran`s case,fight tooth and nail to BE the hoi poloi.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is my point Doc. Many are being hypocritical to recognise the flaws in iranian politics but fail to recognise or speak out with the same conviction and vigor of those in the west.</div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">It must be a sign of madness</span> that you and others spend time and multiple pages trying to engineer a link between Iranian protests and everything else.
Right now the protest is in Iran over the out come of their Presidential Elections, you nor anyone else has so far provided not one shred of evidence to suggest that outside forces have anything at all to do with the Protests and the brutal crackdown by the Republic of Iran.

[neutral]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">It must be a sign of madness</span> that you and others spend time and multiple pages trying to engineer a link between Iranian protests and everything else.
Right now the protest is in Iran over the out come of their Presidential Elections, you nor anyone else has so far provided not one shred of evidence to suggest that outside forces have anything at all to do with the Protests and the brutal crackdown by the Republic of Iran. </div></div>


However,....there has also been not one shred of evidence that the votes were rigged,and IF those protesters used the same protesting methods in ANY wetern countries then the crackdown would be no less brutal,...there are a lot of hypocrisy where this matter is concerned,and there is no denying it.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is interesting though is that the majority of the people who feel they were screwed at the election process are affluent middle class intellectuals,it`s always interesting when a country is going through changes that it is usually these kind of people who are more likely to vehemently protest for change,...is it because THEY have more to lose.</div></div>
The right groups of people are protesting in Iran.

Iran is a country where the development of its infrastructure is inversely proportional to the value of its trade in resources. Which means there are a ton of poor folks without disposable income who would starve to death if they took one day off to contemplate the hopelessness of their lives.
It therefore falls upon the middle class and the rich who have derived some benefits and have the luxury of time and resources, even under trying circumstances, to act progressively in defense of their own selfish ambitions but more so for the collective good of the whole.

It is well known that while the rich and the well-to-do might not have the interests of the poor at heart is very easy to convince a significant number of poor folks to consistently vote against their own self-interests. That is why they are not reliable to lead revolutions but by their share numbers and saturation must be convinced to act in the vanguard for change.

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">To whom much is given much is expected.</span>

[neutral]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is interesting though is that the majority of the people who feel they were screwed at the election process are affluent middle class intellectuals,it`s always interesting when a country is going through changes that it is usually these kind of people who are more likely to vehemently protest for change,...is it because THEY have more to lose.</div></div>
The right groups of people are protesting in Iran.

Iran is a country where the development of its infrastructure is inversely proportional to the value of its trade in resources. Which means there are a ton of poor folks without disposable income who would starve to death if they took one day off to contemplate the hopelessness of their lives.
It therefore falls upon the middle class and the rich who have derived some benefits and have the luxury of time and resources, even under trying circumstances, to act progressively in defense of their own selfish ambitions but more so for the collective good of the whole.

It is well known that while the rich and the well-to-do might not have the interests of the poor at heart is very easy to convince a significant number of poor folks to consistently vote against their own self-interests. That is why they are not reliable to lead revolutions but by their share numbers and saturation must be convinced to act in the vanguard for change.

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">To whom much is given much is expected.</span>
</div></div>

SO with this in mind do you really think the rich folks have any justification for stirring up trouble except to advance their own self interests and maintain the status quo...?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However,....there has also been not one shred of evidence that the votes were rigged,</div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">That is not true</span>. But that does not concern us in this debate because all Western Governments have said they have no evidence, Commentators have been measured as well but even the ones that look at the evidence have very careful not to draw any conclusion beyond what the evidence.

So to continue to claim that there is outside influence is madness and/or dishonesty.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and IF those protesters used the same protesting methods in ANY wetern countries then the crackdown would be no less brutal,...there are a lot of hypocrisy where this matter is concerned,and there is no denying it. </div></div>

That is not quite true either, even in the most recent cases where the beaten were employed in USA and Britain to put down local riots and/or protests, they were no proof of torture or live rounds been employed.

However on the off-chance that I am massively in error using the worst cases to justify bad things, then claiming that the dissenting opinion is ignoring that horrendous flawed attempt at equivalency is a classic straw man defense / argument that is epic fail in my books.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SO with this in mind do you really think the rich folks have any justification for stirring up trouble except to advance their own self interests and maintain the status quo...?
</div></div>
First you must define stirring up trouble?
And what is this about the rich I thought you said the middle class and the rich?
Secondly you allude to the Cuban Revolution and the leaders, are you saying they were stirring up trouble?

[neutral]

Re: Enforcers and Protesters Clash

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=neutral]However,....there has also been not one shred of evidence that the votes were rigged,

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">That is not true</span>. But that does not concern us in this debate because<span style="font-weight: bold"> all Western Governments have said they have no evidence</span>, Commentators have been </div></div>

Well that really was my point,...no one has come up with any valid evidence.