Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

**Stormmey** · 07-05-2009, 05:31 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">THe blacks ones are considered under class if they dont speak the right language and the black people in Jamaica are considered under class </div></div>

So Doc!! that statement up top, does that describe you

**britisha** · 07-05-2009, 05:42 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

First of all if you would have listened to the song properly, you would have heard that <span style="color: #006600">THERE ARE STANDARD SPELLING RULES!</span> That's one of the main points of the song! I think too many Jamaicans don't realize that Jamaican Creole is a language. LOOK IT UP!

Did you not get the point that the development of the Jamaican Creole writing system is finished? There <span style="color: #006600">IS NOW AN OFFICIAL WAY TO WRITE PATWA. IN FACT IT WAS JAMAICAN-BORN LINGUIST FREDERICK CASSIDY</span> who invented the writing system. Furthermore, the linguistics department of the University of The West Indies is just continuing his work. This isn't something they are thinking about doing! <span style="color: #006600">This is something that has been done and they are now moving forward from this.</span>

Furthermore, how will teaching it be detrimental to Jamaica? Teaching Patwa as well as continuing to teach English would instill national pride and cultural pride. And I don't see how "impossible" it would be for the <span style="color: #006600"><span style="font-weight: bold">LINGUISTICS department</span></span> of The University of the West Indies to continue this!

<span style="color: #660000"><span style="font-weight: bold">It's amazing to me that Jamaicans, of all people, would say that Patwa isn't a language and shouldn't be promoted. </span></span>

Sorry, but if anyone on this board thinks Patwa/Patois/Jamaican Creole isn't a <span style="color: #006600">LANGUAGE</span> then I suggest they take a 4 credit linguistics/cultural anthropology course.

p.s. it's not a dialect either. A dialect would be like a New Yorker accent vs. A southern accent or an Australian accent vs. a South African accent. In fact, Patwa, itself, has dialects: Bajan Creole, Bahamian Creole, Sierra Leone Krio, Belizean Kriol., etc. </div></div>
Nice and wewll thought post IronMan.... but,

Correction IronMan...not every commentator here is a JAMAICAN ...so yuh haffie si wid dem.

This is lifted from Yahsoh as well

Rethink Says:
July 14th, 2008 at 10:03 am

The word ‘patois’ is a<span style="font-weight: bold"> derogatory word used by the Europeans during slavery to describe the language spoken by the slaves.</span> It is a french word that means ’senseless chatter/noise, gibberish’. Fyi, Jamaican ‘patois’ has no Amerindian & Spanish in it. It is a fusion of African and English. I would advise you to do research the next time that is if you intend to have an educated opinion.
Moving on…’patois’ as you like to call it is indeed a language! Even though it shares some words in common with English it has a rule system of it’s own.It is a language in it’s own right. Just try googling ‘The syntax & phonology of Jamaican Creole. Hence, in academic circles it is referred to as ‘Jamaican Creole’ or ‘Jamaican’.

Peter Maxwell, Contributor

I have real sympathy with those who are surprised that anybody in a school would want to make use of the Jamaican language (which the academics call Creole and the rest of us call Patois). After all, most of us have been socialised into believing that it isn't a language at all, that it is at best a dialect of English - suitable for entertainment, perhaps, and for chatting with your family and friends - but that it should have nothing to do with education.

What is true, though, is that a number of wise people have been trying to show us another side of the story for two or three generations already. People like Beryl Loftman-Bailey, D. R. B. Grant and Dennis Craig taught a lot of others that the Jamaican language is not just a dialect, since it has its own system of rules, both for grammar and for pronunciation, and that while most of its words are derived from English words, it is as different from English as Portuguese is from Spanish, or as Haitian is from French.

Target language

Others, like Mervyn Alleyne, Hubert Devonish and Pauline Christie have, for decades, explained that it is known all over the world that if your home language (Jamaican, for instance) is recognised and respected, you will learn a target language (English, for instance) more easily. This is why organisations such as the National Association of Teachers of English (NATE) have encouraged teachers to help children to learn English by noting the similarities and differences between the languages.<span style="font-weight: bold">

Clearly, it is to our advantage to have all Jamaicans proficient in the use of English. Unfortunately, too many adults who claim to be speakers and writers of English set a very poor example for others, never having understood those differences, and getting confused about singular and plural form, about the agreement of subject and verb, or of pronoun and antecedent, and about the accepted form of idiomatic expressions.</span>

At the beginning of this 21st century, the Ministry of Education set up a committee to develop a language-education policy for Jamaica. A careful document was drawn up, with the assistance of able and concerned educators and other stakeholders, and circulated for comment in 2001, prior, we were told, to being submitted for executive approval at Cabinet level.

Official language

According to this document, the proposed policy retains Standard Jamaican English (SJE) as the official language and advocates the policy option of transitional bilingualism, promoting oral use of the home language in schools until skills in SJE are developed.<span style="font-weight: bold"> Within this option, emphasis is placed on the employment of bilingual and bidialectal teaching strategies, particularly at the early primary level and again at the early secondary level, where numerous language and literacy needs are also manifested.</span>

It is a pity that the scholarship and good intentions of that transformational exercise appear to have come to nought. Nothing further was heard of it.

Peter Maxwell is an educator and editor of the publications of Jamaica's National Association of Teachers of English.

From the Gleaner..yahsoh to be exackk

**britisha** · 07-05-2009, 05:46 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stormmey1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">THe blacks ones are considered under class if they dont speak the right language and the black people in Jamaica are considered under class </div></div>

So Doc!! that statement up top, does that describe you </div></div>

((Stormeyyyyyyyy))

Dem seh <span style="font-weight: bold">"cock moute kill cock"</span>

Wiki Professah a cuss himself and doan even see it...What is more telling than THAT?? A case of chat chat chat til yuh chat pere...

**britisha** · 07-05-2009, 06:20 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

From that Gleaner piece:...Quote: Clearly, it is to our advantage to have all Jamaicans proficient in the use of English. Unfortunately, too many adults who claim to be speakers and writers of English set a very poor example for others, never having understood those differences,<span style="font-weight: bold"> and getting confused about singular and plural form, about the agreement of subject and verb, or of pronoun and antecedent, and about the accepted form of idiomatic expressions.</span>

<span style="font-size: 17pt">OUCH !!</span>

I couldn't resist.

...and btw, this applies to all English speaking countries; especially fill in any name countrie yuh desirah.

**britisha** · 07-05-2009, 06:29 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Jamaica would never REPLACE English with Jamaican Creole! That's just ridiculous! You are getting INCREDIBLY FAR FETCHED... but I'm not surprised... just about all of your posts go waaaay beyond reality. </div></div>

**britisha** · 07-05-2009, 06:34 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sinco01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

como'n Doc ..
address the issue ..
not the person ..

lawd ..
i'll tek de pillow .. </div></div>

Obviously nooo-bodddy will take that case!!

Blackstar* · 07-05-2009, 07:10 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xavier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bottomline for me now is that Jamaican Patois is a language.</div></div>It most certainly is!

**britisha** · 07-05-2009, 07:41 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xavier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I first started Jamaicans.com I was adamant in my replies to inquires that patois is not a language. Even though we had a dictionary, sound clips and phrases I would still call it a dialect. That has changed a few years ago in a discussion I had with a linguist. Basically I was told that before any written material a "language" was anyway a person communicated. There was no structure or grammer in the first languages. It was spoken. Same thing with many of the African languages. So I argued back and said patois is based on English. That did not hold water either as many languages are "derived" from others and share the same words.

I was still a little skeptical of calling patois a language but stopped calling it a "dialect". That has changed since I started reading the children stories in patois and posting them online. I have not met and communicated with descendants of Jamaicans who live in Panama, Costa Rica, Honduras and Nicaragua who know patois as a separate language. What was even more shocking was them telling me that some people speak patois but do not know English. I know that is hard to believe but I have gotten confirmation that it is true. Every word is patois to them. I am considering doing an article on this for the site as I am still doing some more research.

Bottomline for me now is that Jamaican Patois is a language.

PS: I never thought the day would come when I would be saying this. </div></div>

Thanks for your honesty Xavier...it is SO REFRESHING..

I had reservations as well, and I think initially gravitated to it not being a language, now I share your sentiments.

With due respect to you though, I feel as if we are crying over "spilt" milk, the case being, A LOT OF OUR THREADS WERE NOT ARCHIVED especially in the Jamaican Politrix forum...I had printed a very many of them that I thought were important, but "is tuh find dem now.."

I remember when Fledgist was here, he gave some good comments on the topic, very scholarly and objective in support of Patois being a language...cannot membah if he was for teaching it in schools doah.

[If you do a google on fledgist, you'll see some of his comments on the topic]

Fledgist was one boardite here who had my utmost respect for his knowledge; even if our opinions differed at times... and I still do for some folks here...you know who you are.

Now we are reduced to tirades and screaming matches in dealing with such an important topic, especially since it appears that some have not done their homework...

As you and others have already mentioned, in tracing the roots of the English language, one can see similarities with Jamaican Creyol.

Take Olde English for example; here's a snippet..<span style="font-weight: bold"> Eft he axode, hu ðære ðeode nama wære þe hi of comon. Him wæs geandwyrd, þæt hi Angle genemnode wæron. Þa cwæð he, "Rihtlice hi sind Angle gehatene, for ðan ðe hi engla wlite habbað, and swilcum gedafenað þæt hi on heofonum engla geferan beon."</span> <span style="font-style: italic">

A few of these words will be recognized as identical in spelling with their modern equivalents—he, of, him, for, and, on—and the resemblance of a few others to familiar words may be guessed—nama to name, comon to come, wære to were, wæs to was—but only those who have made a special study of Old English will be able to read the passage with understanding. The sense of it is as follows:"</span>

searched for Olde English sample here

We have already agreed that in Jamaican Creyol there are words that came directly from our Mother country, Africa..so for some to state unequivocally that "Patois is English" it is either done out of ignorance; or just plain dishonesty to deny us our roots.

Every language undergoes evolution...look at some words from the technology world especially computer technology, that are now being added to dictionaries, and incorporated into everyday usage.

The slave masters looked down on everything "African" during slavery, still yet they found it necessary to study Swahili...the same thing now in Nigeria, many white oil traders are learning the language. Many farrinas have their interest in "patois" peaked...Just read where "Jafaican" in London is taking over from cockney..London of all places..

Between oono an mi, if *I* had my own way; I'd keep "patois" a secret language.

For those who would even for one moment believe that "Patois" cannot be studied alongside English, dem need fi wheel an cum agen...as I clearly stated here time and time agen, is West Kingston mi baawn and grow..."Patois" was the primary medium of oral communication in that "part of the world," including in my home...unless as children we would chry a ting wid "gypsy"..a ping a poe a pie a pep a peh..

I attended one of the best schools, if not the best...[no bakkle flinging please] and earned Distinction in Cambridge in English Lit.. and English Language exams"..I also managed to squeeze out a credit in Spanish in the same exams that I sat...This is while carrying a load of 9 subjects including Latin..So please, some of you pundits out there, do NOT underestimate Jamaican children to even "COGNISIZE' that they lack the intellectual ability to master more than one language, including Patois/Jamaican Creyol in the same curriculum. Duh!! mi a beg oono.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

From <span style="font-weight: bold">Stormey</span> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> britisha am doing fine and anyone that think Jamaicans are foo fool is them foo fool. The general consensus on here is that I am foo fool but dang!! send the fool a little further.<span style="font-style: italic"> My motto is each one teach one</span> and Lady you are one of the boardites that have taught me a lot learned a lot from your posts

On ja.com and other boards you have the intellect, the seemingly bubble head the joker and.....the ones that act like they are intellectual watch dem....a dedding dwl[/b]</div></div>

Stormey, that should be the sub motto of the board <span style="font-weight: bold">each one teach one</span> there is such a vast wealth of knowledge out there to learn... but, most times here, it seems to be a pissing match as to who will "win"/ score brownie points among the favourites, rather than what we can learn from each other in this vast arena where it should be a fair exchange of "ideas"...nott'n moe, nutt'n less. However, heaven help some of us if our opinions cross theirs, present a non-conformist view, or radically depart for the group thinking..

In any case, I think it behooves us who post here to<span style="font-weight: bold"> maintain the integrity of the site by posting what is true AND ACCURATE; </span> [to the best of one's knowledge] if not, the site will appear as a "joke thing" a place to run for comic relief...if yuh ketch mi jrift..

The mere "posting of board rules" to restrict/scare others in a surreptitious way, ain't gonnah cut it; ain't gonnah restrict some of us from posting, although it does appear that that is the motive/agenda behind all the insults and put downs, and taunts and <span style="font-weight: bold">ad hominems</span>...[and yes, I've done my share of counter punches].

It is the substance of our words that will determine how this site is and will be viewed on the www; it is the substance that will determine what we take away as new knowledge; not the posting of board rules, ad infinitum..

<span style="font-style: italic">cum dung affahmi bruk dung soap bax, blow hut mi tinning lamp..</span>

((Stormey)) you have a way of making me feel boonoonunus aawn yah...I feel the love.. Love yah!!..

**RcOmK** · 07-05-2009, 11:54 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

For those who would even for one moment believe that "Patois" cannot be studied alongside English, dem need fi wheel an cum agen...as I clearly stated here time and time agen, is West Kingston mi baawn and grow..."Patois" was the primary medium of oral communication in that "part of the world," including in my home...unless as children we would chry a ting wid "gypsy"..a ping a poe a pie a pep a peh..

I attended one of the best schools, if not the best...[no bakkle flinging please] and earned Distinction in Cambridge in English Lit.. and English Language exams"..I also managed to squeeze out a credit in Spanish in the same exams that I sat...This is while carrying a load of 9 subjects including Latin..So please, some of you pundits out there, do NOT underestimate Jamaican children to even "COGNISIZE' that they lack the intellectual ability to master more than one language, including Patois/Jamaican Creyol in the same curriculum. Duh!! mi a beg oono.
</div></div>

EXACTLY!

Si it de!

**britisha** · 07-05-2009, 02:14 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

IronMan,

What I'd like to say is, if I may..."whatever the human mind can conceive, it can achieve.." I do believe that.

If we as Jamaicans set our hearts on doing a good project, in the true sense of the word, there is nothing that we cannot accomplish...money or no money. I would even fantasize to say that when effort is shown to a certain degree in some pursuits, philanthropists will come out of nowhere to support some causes.

Not that we will go a-begging, but I could bet that there will be Jamaicans in the diaspora who would offer financial support, since we might be financially strapped....and part of the outcry here is about the money that could be "wasted" because of embarking on such a plan.

We have produced some of the most influential figures in the world, learning patois alongside English should be no major challenge; if anything it would only whet some appetites.

...and mi editing this to say, hope mi 'Merican frens don't take offense re my comment that some are NOT Jamaicans...wha mi really a seh is "who feels it knows it Laawd."

**Dr.Dudd** · 07-06-2009, 02:14 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

UWI, Mona Launches Patwa Book Titled, “Writing Jamaican the Jamaican Way
Posted: June 15, 2009

“Writing Jamaican the Jamaican Way/ Ou Fi Rait Jamiekan” is the title of the first major commercial publication set to be released by the Jamaican Language Unit (JLU) UWI, Mona on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 at 6 pm at the Philip Sherlock Centre for the Creative Arts, UWI, Mona.

The launch features a combination of digital and live performances, including budding dancehall artiste Nickesha Dawkins a.k.a. Gem Sto:n. She will perform the specially written dancehall song titled, ‘Writing Jamaican the Jamaican Way’. It will be hosted by an animated personality, Emcee Jamtik.

The book address the fundaments of the Jamaican Language also called Patwa such as the alphabet, vowels, nasalised vowels and consonants, grammar and use of the language in various settings. It is designed to teach users how to write the Jamaican Language using the Cassidy standard writing system.

The book was produced with the help of funding from Carreras Limited as part of a grant made to the Jamaican Language Unit for a series of projects involving the promotion of the Jamaican language.

The public is invited to attend. For more information on the JLU and to see teasers for the book launch please visit the following links:

Page not found | Department of Language, Linguistics and Philosophy

http://www.mona.uwi.edu/dllp/jlu/index.htm

http://tv.mona.uwi.edu/#id=433

http://tv.mona.uwi.edu/#id=434

**Dr.Dudd** · 07-06-2009, 02:20 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

The Jamaican Language Unit (JLU) is a Unit in the Department of Language, Linguistics and Philosophy, UWI, Mona, with effect from September 2002.

In May, 2001, representations were made to the Joint Select Committee of the Parliament of Jamaica on the draft Charter of Rights (Constitutional Amendment Bill) on the need to include within the charter freedom from discrimination on the grounds of language. The point was made that many citizens of Jamaica lack competence in English, the language in which services of the state are normally provided. The vast majority of such persons are speakers of Jamaican, widely referred to as Patwa. <span style="font-weight: bold">It was argued that failure to provide services of the state in a language in such general use or discriminatory treatment by officers of the state based on the inability of a citizen to use English, was a violation of the rights of citizens so affected. The proposal was made that freedom from discrimination on the ground of language be inserted into the Charter of Rights. To support such a right, it was recommended that a language planning agency be set up to deal with issues such as:

i.a standard writing system for Jamaican,
ii.the development of technical and administrative terminology in the language for use by officers of the state,
iii.the monitoring of state agencies with respect to the non-discriminatory provision of services in the two languages in general use, i.e. English and Jamaican,
iv.public education on the language issue.
The Joint Select Committee (Report, 2002, pp. 29), states that ‘The general consensus of the Committee, after discussion on the matter, is that the establishment of an agency of the type mentioned … would be a pre-requisite to any constitutional guarantee of protection from discrimination on the ground of language and that such an agency should be established. Such an institution would assist in educating and enlightening people on the issue of discrimination on the ground of language so that, eventually,[b] a guarantee of protection from such discrimination would find its place in the Constitution.’ The Report goes on to state (p. 30) that the Committee was strongly of the view that Parliament should encourage the Dept. of Language, Linguistics and Philosophy of the University of the West Indies to pursue this work and to report appropriately on that work as it progresses.</span>

In a letter from the Chairman of the Joint Select Committee, dated 28th February, 2002, from the Chairman of the Committee, Senator The Honourable A. J. Nicholson, Q.C., Attorney General and Minister of Justice, reports the recommendations of the Committee with regard to the setting up of a language agency modelled on the Antillean Linguistic Institute of the Netherlands Antilles and pledges that ‘The Ministry of Justice stands ready to assist as may become necessary.’…

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**Dr.Dudd** · 07-06-2009, 02:24 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

The next step is to do anammendment to th econstotution to give people the right to function without being able to read.

**Derek** · 07-06-2009, 02:24 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

Isn't Patois English spelt phonetically (Jamaican accent: oil = ile) with a sprinkling of African and Carib words?

**Dr.Dudd** · 07-06-2009, 02:29 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isn't Patois English spelt phonetically (Jamaican accent: oil = ile) with a sprinkling of African and Carib words? </div></div> Patoes is simply Jamaican english as far as I am concerned.
Th eproblem I hav ewith it being guiven equakl use as English.
Is that Englis will disappear from use of thecommpn Jamaican and we will have a lot more difficulyty to get them into the productive sectior.
Jus as how 'texting i sdestroying any skill th eteens had developed in use of english. They can't write a simple letter any more.

Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

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