Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

**mountaingal** · 07-06-2009, 11:21 AM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isn't Patois English spelt phonetically (Jamaican accent: oil = ile) with a sprinkling of African and Carib words? </div></div>

no. patwa is more than just pronunciation, there are grammatical rules to it as well. as a long time advocate of treating patwa as a language, i'm pleased at this development. i'm not crazy about some of the overly linguistic spellings - i would have preferred "ritin" over "raitin".

**RcOmK** · 07-06-2009, 12:15 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isn't Patois English spelt phonetically (Jamaican accent: oil = ile) with a sprinkling of African and Carib words? </div></div>

OMG.... talk about LATE... read any of my earlier posts, Britisha's posts and/or Xavier's post.

**RcOmK** · 07-06-2009, 12:55 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<span style="color: #006600"><span style="font-weight: bold">Di pikni dem de ya.
We mek unu afi tan so stush?
Woliip a sitn de roun ya fi nyam.</span></span>

<span style="color: #006600"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Mi di jus</span></span> chuuz trii <span style="color: #006600"><span style="text-decoration: underline">friez dem</span></span>. Yu tingk se <span style="color: #006600"><span style="text-decoration: underline">smady we no</span></span> nuo ou fi chat Patwa (ongle Inglish) <span style="color: #006600"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">wuda</span></span></span> andastan <span style="color: #006600"><span style="text-decoration: underline">we mi di rait se</span>? </span>
<span style="color: #660000"><span style="text-decoration: underline">I chose just</span></span> three simple <span style="color: #660000"><span style="text-decoration: underline">phrases</span></span>. <span style="color: #660000"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Would</span></span></span> <span style="color: #660000"><span style="text-decoration: underline">someone who doesn't</span></span> speak Jamaican Creole (only English) understand <span style="color: #660000"><span style="text-decoration: underline">what I wrote?</span></span>

In those two phrases the difference in <span style="color: #000099">vocabulary</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">AS WELL AS</span> <span style="color: #000099">pronunciation</span> is OBVIOUS , but what I pointed out are the <span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">syntax</span></span> and <span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">grammar</span></span> differences in just 2 quick sentences.

**julie*mango** · 07-06-2009, 01:10 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

you know what is funny...to actually write "comrpehendable" Jamaican-patois one must have a fundamental understand of the English language, particularly the phonetic sounds...a lack of this concept will have readers fumbling and confused as to what the writer is attempting to say.

for example:

your sentence: <span style="font-style: italic">di pikni dem de ya.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">de </span>and <span style="font-weight: bold">deh </span>are two completely different words.

the <span style="font-style: italic">e </span>in <span style="font-weight: bold">de </span>sounds like the <span style="font-style: italic">i </span>in igloo.

th <span style="font-style: italic">eh </span>in <span style="font-weight: bold">deh </span>sounds like the <span style="font-style: italic">e</span> in egg.

Same thing applies to <span style="font-weight: bold">we </span>in your sentence: <span style="font-style: italic">We mek unu afi tan so stush?</span>

**Xavier** · 07-06-2009, 01:30 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

My Haitian friends tell me that French is the base language for Haitian Creole. Haitian Creole is a language. Many Haitians understand and can speak French. I do remember a time when a few Haitians would say they speak French rather than creole because of the negative connotations of a creole language.

As I mentioned before I did not see they day coming when I lean to patois as a language. In my earlier post I failed to mentioned the emails I get for job postings looking for patois translators. Many of us as Jamaican will continue to say it is not a language but to many outsiders it is.

**RcOmK** · 07-06-2009, 01:30 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _______</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you know what is funny...to actually write "comrpehendable" Jamaican-patois one must have a fundamental understand of the English language, particularly the phonetic sounds...a lack of this concept will have readers fumbling and confused as to what the writer is attempting to say.

for example:

your sentence: <span style="font-style: italic">di pikni dem de ya.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">de </span>and <span style="font-weight: bold">deh </span>are two completely different words.

the <span style="font-style: italic">e </span>in <span style="font-weight: bold">de </span>sounds like the <span style="font-style: italic">i </span>in igloo.

th <span style="font-style: italic">eh </span>in <span style="font-weight: bold">deh </span>sounds like the <span style="font-style: italic">e</span> in egg.

Same thing applies to <span style="font-weight: bold">we </span>in your sentence: <span style="font-style: italic">We mek unu afi tan so stush?</span>

</div></div>

The phrases I wrote follow the new STANDARD WRITING SYSTEM of Jamaican Creole. The system that was developed by Jamaican linguist Frederick Cassidy, and continued by the University of the West Indies Linguistics department.

But the point of writing "de" instead of "deh" is that when Jamaicans say "de" there is no H (as in Happy) being pronounced. In fact, there <span style="color: #660000">is NO "H" in Jamaican Creole</span>. So why would it be written "deh"? That's an unnecessary letter.

in the Jamaican Creole standard writing system...
the <span style="font-weight: bold">"i"</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">"di"</span> has the sound of <span style="font-weight: bold">"i"</span> as in igloo

the <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">"de"</span> has a sound like <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> as in spend.

You're making this WAAAAY more difficult than it is. But for some reason, people like to do that. Idk why.
<span style="font-weight: bold">

<span style="color: #660000">Plus Jamaican Creole is not English, so why would it follow English spelling rules? </span></span>

The writing system is developed; it's done. There are work books and videos etc.

**mountaingal** · 07-06-2009, 01:30 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _______</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you know what is funny...to actually write "comrpehendable" Jamaican-patois one must have a fundamental understand of the English language, particularly the phonetic sounds...a lack of this concept will have readers fumbling and confused as to what the writer is attempting to say. </div></div>

u know something, this applies to people who are trying to learn English, lol. the variety and discrepancies in English pronunciations bedevil those who are trying to learn it as a second language.

the playwright George Bernard Shaw spent a long time arguing for a simplification of English spelling to match pronunciation, but it was a lost cause. His famous example was that according to English pronunciation and spelling, the word "fish" could be written as "ghoti".

**britisha** · 07-06-2009, 01:57 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _______</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you know what is funny...to actually write "comrpehendable" Jamaican-patois one must have a fundamental understand of the English language, particularly the phonetic sounds...a lack of this concept will have readers fumbling and confused as to what the writer is attempting to say.

for example:

your sentence: <span style="font-style: italic">di pikni dem de ya.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">de </span>and <span style="font-weight: bold">deh </span>are two completely different words.

the <span style="font-style: italic">e </span>in <span style="font-weight: bold">de </span>sounds like the <span style="font-style: italic">i </span>in igloo.

th <span style="font-style: italic">eh </span>in <span style="font-weight: bold">deh </span>sounds like the <span style="font-style: italic">e</span> in egg.

Same thing applies to <span style="font-weight: bold">we </span>in your sentence: <span style="font-style: italic">We mek unu afi tan so stush?</span>

</div></div>

The phrases I wrote follow the new STANDARD WRITING SYSTEM of Jamaican Creole. The system that was developed by Jamaican linguist Frederick Cassidy, and continued by the University of the West Indies Linguistics department.

But the point of writing "de" instead of "deh" is that when Jamaicans say "de" there is no H (as in Happy) being pronounced. In fact, there <span style="color: #660000">is NO "H" in Jamaican Creole</span>. So why would it be written "deh"? That's an unnecessary letter.

in the Jamaican Creole standard writing system...
the <span style="font-weight: bold">"i"</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">"di"</span> has the sound of <span style="font-weight: bold">"i"</span> as in igloo

the <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">"de"</span> has a sound like <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> as in spend.

You're making this WAAAAY more difficult than it is. But for some reason, people like to do that. Idk why.
<span style="font-weight: bold">

<span style="color: #660000">Plus Jamaican Creole is not English, so why would it follow English spelling rules? </span></span>

The writing system is developed; it's done. There are work books and videos etc. </div></div>

I think she has a point Iron Man, and if this is not off the ground yet, it should be considered. to avoid confusion...edited to say and if it is already completed, they mebbie wi haffie present a correckted version..

*I* am inclined to believe that while<span style="font-weight: bold"> not</span> following the rules of "English grammar" we have to be clear on what the rules are going to be....eg, to quote you..<span style="font-weight: bold">

the <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">"de"</span> has a sound like <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> as in spend.</span>

For want of another way to express this, I think Skelley is talking about the placement of the "accents" over which "vowels" [the word "vowel" not being germane to the English language]

There could be confusion between "de" and "deh"...for me a raw baawn 'patois expert' it would be no problem, but for a first timer to the "language" it could pose one...unless there will be a Primer re accent placement.

**RcOmK** · 07-06-2009, 02:10 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

Well, from what I watched in the video of the "unveiling" of the final project on the "UWI tv" website, the writing system <span style="color: #006600">is completed</span>... Plus this is initially intended for Jamaicans who already know Jamaican Creole, so new comers will just have to get over it.

I mean, they have workbooks published, videos, and even a "Writing Jamaican the Jamaican Way" manual/workbook with videos, etc. and these can be purchased.

Keep in mind this is something that has been in the works for quite some time.

As far as the writing, here's a "Spelling Jamaican the Jamaican Way" handout that the Jamaica Language Unit made:

http://74.125.47.132/custom?q=cache:OU6Xo_LFLZsJ:www.mona.uwi.edu/dllp/jlu/documents/spelling-jamaican-the-jamaican-way-Handout.pdf+Writing+jamaican+the+Jamiacn+way&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=pub-8993703457585266

copy and paste that link in your URL and it will take you to the page.

Plus, I don't think accents would be needed or helpful to people who aren't familiar with a language like Spanish or French, etc.

**britisha** · 07-06-2009, 02:19 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, from what i watched in the video of the "unveiling" of the final project is that the writing system <span style="color: #006600">is completed</span>... and i don't think accents would be needed... Plus this is initially intended for Jamaicans who already know Jamaican Creole, so new comers will just have to get over it.

I mean, they have workbooks published, videos, and even a "Writing Jamaican the Jamaican Way" manual/workbook with videos and everything that one may purchase.

Keep in mind this is something that has been in the works for quite some time.

As far as the writing, here's a "Spelling Jamaican the Jamaican Way" handout that the Jamaica Language Unit made:

</div></div>

No sweat IronMan... if one checks some old English Grammar texts like "Nesfield" [of which I STILL have a copy, it all go innah Nominative, Vocative and Accusative case tuh rackstone] *chukkle* it will be seen that changes have been made over the years from then til now...as I said "all languages" undergo evolution, even if it is in SOME rules applied to them.

btw, that link nat coming chru...thanks..

<span style="font-style: italic">methinks Nesfield so owle, it outtah print, but mi cuddah bi wrang</span> Seriously, some old English grammar texts are useless, so there...

**julie*mango** · 07-06-2009, 02:21 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

spot on
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _______</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you know what is funny...to actually write "comrpehendable" Jamaican-patois one must have a fundamental understand of the English language, particularly the phonetic sounds...a lack of this concept will have readers fumbling and confused as to what the writer is attempting to say.

for example:

your sentence: <span style="font-style: italic">di pikni dem de ya.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">de </span>and <span style="font-weight: bold">deh </span>are two completely different words.

the <span style="font-style: italic">e </span>in <span style="font-weight: bold">de </span>sounds like the <span style="font-style: italic">i </span>in igloo.

th <span style="font-style: italic">eh </span>in <span style="font-weight: bold">deh </span>sounds like the <span style="font-style: italic">e</span> in egg.

Same thing applies to <span style="font-weight: bold">we </span>in your sentence: <span style="font-style: italic">We mek unu afi tan so stush?</span>

</div></div>

The phrases I wrote follow the new STANDARD WRITING SYSTEM of Jamaican Creole. The system that was developed by Jamaican linguist Frederick Cassidy, and continued by the University of the West Indies Linguistics department.

But the point of writing "de" instead of "deh" is that when Jamaicans say "de" there is no H (as in Happy) being pronounced. In fact, there <span style="color: #660000">is NO "H" in Jamaican Creole</span>. So why would it be written "deh"? That's an unnecessary letter.

in the Jamaican Creole standard writing system...
the <span style="font-weight: bold">"i"</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">"di"</span> has the sound of <span style="font-weight: bold">"i"</span> as in igloo

the <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">"de"</span> has a sound like <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> as in spend.

You're making this WAAAAY more difficult than it is. But for some reason, people like to do that. Idk why.
<span style="font-weight: bold">

<span style="color: #660000">Plus Jamaican Creole is not English, so why would it follow English spelling rules? </span></span>

The writing system is developed; it's done. There are work books and videos etc. </div></div>

I think she has a point Iron Man, and if this is not off the ground yet, it should be considered. to avoid confusion...edited to say and if it is already completed, they mebbie wi haffie present a correckted version..

*I* am inclined to believe that while<span style="font-weight: bold"> not</span> following the rules of "English grammar" we have to be clear on what the rules are going to be....eg, to quote you..<span style="font-weight: bold">

the <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">"de"</span> has a sound like <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> as in spend.</span>

For want of another way to express this, I think Skelley is talking about the placement of the "accents" over which "vowels" [the word "vowel" not being germane to the English language]

There could be confusion between "de" and "deh"...for me a raw baawn 'patois expert' it would be no problem, but for a first timer to the "language" it could pose one...unless there will be a Primer re accent placement. </div></div>

**RcOmK** · 07-06-2009, 02:25 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

btw, that link nat coming chru...thanks..
</div></div>

oh, sorry.. let me try again

Jamaican Creole Spelling Handout

**britisha** · 07-06-2009, 02:30 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

btw, that link nat coming chru...thanks..
</div></div>

oh, sorry.. let me try again

Jamaican Creole Spelling Handout </div></div>

Purfeck...it worked..

<span style="font-weight: bold">I LOVE IT</span>

Now that seems to deal with the spelling ...is there rules for verbs? In fact, where can we purchase these?

**RcOmK** · 07-06-2009, 02:30 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _______</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you know what is funny...to actually write "comrpehendable" Jamaican-patois one must have a fundamental understand of the English language, particularly the phonetic sounds...a lack of this concept will have readers fumbling and confused as to what the writer is attempting to say.

for example:

your sentence: <span style="font-style: italic">di pikni dem de ya.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">de </span>and <span style="font-weight: bold">deh </span>are two completely different words.

the <span style="font-style: italic">e </span>in <span style="font-weight: bold">de </span>sounds like the <span style="font-style: italic">i </span>in igloo.

th <span style="font-style: italic">eh </span>in <span style="font-weight: bold">deh </span>sounds like the <span style="font-style: italic">e</span> in egg.

Same thing applies to <span style="font-weight: bold">we </span>in your sentence: <span style="font-style: italic">We mek unu afi tan so stush?</span>

</div></div>

The phrases I wrote follow the new STANDARD WRITING SYSTEM of Jamaican Creole. The system that was developed by Jamaican linguist Frederick Cassidy, and continued by the University of the West Indies Linguistics department.

But the point of writing "de" instead of "deh" is that when Jamaicans say "de" there is no H (as in Happy) being pronounced. In fact, there <span style="color: #660000">is NO "H" in Jamaican Creole</span>. So why would it be written "deh"? That's an unnecessary letter.

in the Jamaican Creole standard writing system...
the <span style="font-weight: bold">"i"</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">"di"</span> has the sound of <span style="font-weight: bold">"i"</span> as in igloo

the <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">"de"</span> has a sound like <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> as in spend.

You're making this WAAAAY more difficult than it is. But for some reason, people like to do that. Idk why.
<span style="font-weight: bold">

<span style="color: #660000">Plus Jamaican Creole is not English, so why would it follow English spelling rules? </span></span>

The writing system is developed; it's done. There are work books and videos etc. </div></div>

I think she has a point Iron Man, and if this is not off the ground yet, it should be considered. to avoid confusion...edited to say and if it is already completed, they mebbie wi haffie present a correckted version..

*I* am inclined to believe that while<span style="font-weight: bold"> not</span> following the rules of "English grammar" we have to be clear on what the rules are going to be....eg, to quote you..<span style="font-weight: bold">

the <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> in <span style="font-weight: bold">"de"</span> has a sound like <span style="font-weight: bold">"e"</span> as in spend.</span>

For want of another way to express this, I think Skelley is talking about the placement of the "accents" over which "vowels" [the word "vowel" not being germane to the English language]

There could be confusion between "de" and "deh"...for me a raw baawn 'patois expert' it would be no problem, but for a first timer to the "language" it could pose one...unless there will be a Primer re accent placement. </div></div>

Plus if one follows the simple rules of what sound each letter makes then there shouldn't be confusion... I'm sorry I still don't see how "de" and "di" would be pronounced the same... maybe it's my romance language background.

**RcOmK** · 07-06-2009, 02:36 PM

Re: Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron_Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: britisha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

btw, that link nat coming chru...thanks..
</div></div>

oh, sorry.. let me try again

Jamaican Creole Spelling Handout </div></div>

Purfeck...it worked..

<span style="font-weight: bold">I LOVE IT</span>

Now that seems to deal with the spelling ...is there rules for verbs? In fact, where can we purchase these? </div></div>

Their YouTube page says Arawak Publications , but i can't find it on there... i e-mailed someone and they said i could get it at any UWI bookstore... he thought i am a student there lol

i'm still trying to find out.

Patwa fainali av wan raitin sistim.

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