Jamaicans abroad upset at sale of Air J

[RichD]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">RichD</span> before you laugh consider the whole of what I have written.
The Answer is yes and no. But if you are poop-pooping information from Parliament, an interview with the Prime Minister, numerous other reports and public speeches, then none of us on this board will have anything to work with, since not one of us is privy to a seat at any of these negotiations.

The very same report <span style="font-style: italic">(of which I heard a fuller account)</span>, is the basis of these last conversation on this subject. It is from the same you drew your question, which I attempted to answer.

The very question you asked must have been considered in Parliament, since it would have been an easy political point to score. To back the PM in a corner and to prove that he is lying about needing to sell the Airlines to pay debts would have been easy pickings were it was available.
</div></div>

easy political picking of you don't have skeletons in your closet too.

On the surface what the PM has said is not untrue. the accumulated losses of the airline are inf act in the range of $1.2 billion...however anybody who has any exposure to accounting would know that this does not directly translate to debt..however it is convenient to use this number and a lack of understanding of what it actually meas in order to garner political support for his argument.

[WiseJamaican]

Re: Jamaicans abroad upset at sale of Air J

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
LOL if progress in Jamaica depended on Jamaicans abroad we would be at the bottom of the sea by now. So far in all my years of living outside of Jamaica i have never seen or heard one progressive announcement for Jamaicans abroad speaking as an organized group. </div></div>

In agreement with this because One han’ cyaan clap and it is time those in the diaspora know this.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

How you know that the prime Minister know that there is a difference, between losses and debt?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">RichD</span> before you laugh consider the whole of what I have written.
The Answer is yes and no. But if you are poop-pooping information from Parliament, an interview with the Prime Minister, numerous other reports and public speeches, then none of us on this board will have anything to work with, since not one of us is privy to a seat at any of these negotiations.

The very same report <span style="font-style: italic">(of which I heard a fuller account)</span>, is the basis of these last conversation on this subject. It is from the same you drew your question, which I attempted to answer.

The very question you asked must have been considered in Parliament, since it would have been an easy political point to score. To back the PM in a corner and to prove that he is lying about needing to sell the Airlines to pay debts would have been easy pickings were it was available.
</div></div>

easy political picking of you don't have skeletons in your closet too.

On the surface what the PM has said is not untrue. the accumulated losses of the airline are inf act in the range of $1.2 billion...however anybody who has any exposure to accounting would know that this does not directly translate to debt..however it is convenient to use this number and a lack of understanding of what it actually meas in order to garner political support for his argument. </div></div>

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How you know that the prime Minister know that there is a difference, between losses and debt?</div></div>

So you're saying that it's possible that the honours graduate in Economics from your <span style="font-style: italic">alma mater</span> may be confused in that regard?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

I don't think he majored in economics. I think it is political science he majored in. And the economics they do for that is the principles, and not much of applied economics. One can actually graduate wit a degree in economics, and miss the whole part about accounting . Since accounting is not really a subject of study other than as a tool to be applied in economics. As a matter of fact some even get Hons in economics, and cannot explain the first principles. And that is not limited to the UWI either. the majority of graduates with first degree in economics, still don't understand a lot of the principles. That is why they have to quote others so much. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How you know that the prime Minister know that there is a difference, between losses and debt?</div></div>

So you're saying that it's possible that the honours graduate in Economics from your <span style="font-style: italic">alma mater</span> may be confused in that regard? </div></div>

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the surface what the PM has said is not untrue. the accumulated losses of the airline are inf act in the range of $1.2 billion...however anybody who has any exposure to accounting would know that this does not directly translate to debt..however it is convenient to use this number and a lack of understanding of what it actually meas in order to garner political support for his argument. </div></div>

It is amazing how we introduce and reintroduce red herrings, disconnected argument and may i say dishonest positions in most discussions (attempted discussions) on this board.
This is not a straight forward accounting exercise, this is <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Jamaica</span> and we must argue the point in the context of <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Jamaica</span>.

In the first place no one, especially those outside of the inner sanctum of the PNP knows where losses end, borrowing begins and the corrupt practice of allowing Parastatals, such as <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Air Jamaica</span> to virtually write their own loans and very likely bury it in so-called <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">operating expenses</span> <span style="font-style: italic">(hence losses if you are not making monety.)</span>. So when we here a figure of the GOJ Jamaica total liabilities and we accept the figure as you have done then we have to recognize that it does not matter one way or another since Jamaica at times was allowed to sink into 135% of GDP debt load.

In plain language any GOJ ran/controlled entity that lost money, borrowed money, one way or another.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How you know that the prime Minister know that there is a difference, between losses and debt?</div></div>

So you're saying that it's possible that the honours graduate in Economics from your <span style="font-style: italic">alma mater</span> may be confused in that regard? </div></div>

I was going to answer you but Humano did even though you did not accept it. Let me say this though even if he did not know recognize that this is not Mr. Golding's private business venture there is small army concerned witrh these matters and I am pretty sure he is well advised.
As for this rat-hole of Debt vs. Losses, see above I have answered that query without the need anything higher than a High School Education..

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

Well, not that it matters much, but Golding did earn a degree with honours in Economics at UWI. But I could bet that you would go off on some tangent about the inability of others (not you) to understand this, that or the other, and sure enough, you didn't disappoint.

[RichD]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

In plain language any GOJ ran/controlled entity that lost money, borrowed money, one way or another. </div></div>
that is not in dispute

the questions raised are around whether or not the CAL option is the best deal available and whether it is in the best interest of the country to go this route (rather than sell to somebody else.) I don't see what this is such a difficult question to answer...unless there is some value in not giving a straight answer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">n the first place no one, especially those outside of the inner sanctum of the PNP knows where losses end, borrowing begins </div></div>
the accounting records of any publicly owned entry should be available to the public. I'm sure these numbers were provided to bidders.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is not a straight forward accounting exercise, this is Jamaica and we must argue the point in the context of Jamaica.</div></div> not even sure what you mean by this.

[RichD]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

Interesting:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We see the current government may be doing a super-duper, high-handed (almost Finsac-class) job with Air Jamaica. We must be mushrooms; keep us in the dark and feed us crap. Remember, the national airline is owned by the government. That's supposed to be us, not them. I tried, with the assistance of Jamaicans for Justice, through the Access to Information Act starting back in September 2008 (Ministry of Finance Reference # 626/019, Acc # 230) to find out some pretty basic stuff; like, &quot;Detailed income and expenditure statements of operations of Air Jamaica from 2006 to the level of location (gateways) job titles, cost of accommodation by city, fines incurred, etc.&quot;

To date, this has not been forthcoming. I was offered the 2006 financial statements, which I bought for $320 (receipt # NR6103107). Ha! Ha! Pretty useless.

Now, if Air Jamaica was being run properly, monthly income and expenditure statements by gateway would be readily at hand for planning the operations of an airline. We hear that Mr Bruce Nobles has been making the airline profitable.

Then why dump it? Dump it now, under the conditions as we hear, and we're guaranteed a monstrous bill and little to show for it. A profitable airline based here would give the government a nice source of taxes.</div></div>

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We see the current government may be doing a super-duper, high-handed (almost Finsac-class) job with Air Jamaica. We must be mushrooms; keep us in the dark and feed us crap. Remember, the national airline is owned by the government. That's supposed to be us, not them. I tried, with the assistance of Jamaicans for Justice, through the Access to Information Act starting back in September 2008 (Ministry of Finance Reference # 626/019, Acc # 230) to find out some pretty basic stuff; like, &quot;Detailed income and expenditure statements of operations of Air Jamaica from 2006 to the level of location (gateways) job titles, cost of accommodation by city, fines incurred, etc.&quot;

To date, this has not been forthcoming. I was offered the 2006 financial statements, which I bought for $320 (receipt # NR6103107). Ha! Ha! Pretty useless.

Now, if Air Jamaica was being run properly, monthly income and expenditure statements by gateway would be readily at hand for planning the operations of an airline. We hear that Mr Bruce Nobles has been making the airline profitable.

Then why dump it? Dump it now, under the conditions as we hear, and we're guaranteed a monstrous bill and little to show for it. A profitable airline based here would give the government a nice source of taxes.</div></div> </div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">RichD</span> you are a <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Moderator</span> you should follow the rules provide the <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">source</span>!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is not a straight forward accounting exercise, this is Jamaica and we must argue the point in the context of Jamaica.</div></div> not even sure what you mean by this. </div></div>

You post below may go some way of explaining it, but more to the point you are omitting from your equation the fact the at one point the Debt to GDP Ratio was about 135%. Any company GOJ entity that <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">lost money</span>, <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">borrowed money</span>.

[RichD]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We see the current government may be doing a super-duper, high-handed (almost Finsac-class) job with Air Jamaica. We must be mushrooms; keep us in the dark and feed us crap. Remember, the national airline is owned by the government. That's supposed to be us, not them. I tried, with the assistance of Jamaicans for Justice, through the Access to Information Act starting back in September 2008 (Ministry of Finance Reference # 626/019, Acc # 230) to find out some pretty basic stuff; like, &quot;Detailed income and expenditure statements of operations of Air Jamaica from 2006 to the level of location (gateways) job titles, cost of accommodation by city, fines incurred, etc.&quot;

To date, this has not been forthcoming. I was offered the 2006 financial statements, which I bought for $320 (receipt # NR6103107). Ha! Ha! Pretty useless.

Now, if Air Jamaica was being run properly, monthly income and expenditure statements by gateway would be readily at hand for planning the operations of an airline. We hear that Mr Bruce Nobles has been making the airline profitable.

Then why dump it? Dump it now, under the conditions as we hear, and we're guaranteed a monstrous bill and little to show for it. A profitable airline based here would give the government a nice source of taxes.</div></div> </div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">RichD</span> you are a <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Moderator</span> you should follow the rules provide the <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">source</span>! </div></div>

what rules are those?


anyway here is the source:

Howard Chin Observer column

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the questions raised are around whether or not the CAL option is the best deal available and whether it is in the best interest of the country to go this route (rather than sell to somebody else.) I don't see what this is such a difficult question to answer...unless there is some value in not giving a straight answer</div></div>

You are truly amazing you raise one red herring after another then when it shaken you swap your red herrings.
Whether or not the CAL is good, better, worst it is neither here nor there.
The GOJ did not go to CAL the GOJ tried to sell Air Jamaica and so far they are talking to CAL.
One way or another the <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Lead Bird</span> is done by the end of March.

[RichD]

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You post below may go some way of explaining it, but more to the point you are omitting from your equation the fact the at one point the Debt to GDP Ratio was about 135%. Any company GOJ entity that <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">lost money</span>, <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">borrowed money</span>. </div></div>

not even sure why this is relevant to the discussion at hand?

unless you are arguing that itis the duty of the govt to ensure they get the maximum return when divesting any asset?