is Egypt, the M.E's Berlin Wall moment?????

[johnnycakes]

Re: Tens of thousands demonstrate for ouster of Ye

The following are excerpts from a "Democracy Now" interview with Prof. Juan Cole:

"PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: It’s my main hope right now is, is that violence is not the answer in solving these problems in Egypt. So the government has to be careful about not resorting to violence, and the people on the streets have to be careful about not resorting to violence. And I think that it is very important that people have mechanisms in order to express legitimate grievances. As I said in my State of the Union speech, there are certain core values that we believe in as Americans that we believe are universal—freedom of speech, freedom of expression, people being able to use social networking or any other mechanisms to communicate with each other and express their concerns. And that, I think, is no less true in the Arab world than it is here in the United States.

SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: That was President Obama speaking yesterday. Vice President Joe Biden also yesterday said that President Hosni Mubarak, who has ruled Egypt for 30 years, since 1981, was not a dictator. He made the comment in an interview on the PBSNewsHour.

VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: " Look, Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things that he’s been very responsible on relative to geopolitical interests in the region, Middle East peace efforts, the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with Israel. And I think that it would be—I would not refer to him as a dictator."


The above quotes are reasons NOT to listen to anything Obama or Biden say since they lie like rugs and not to listen to or watch PBS since they will only repeat what is deemed acceptable to their sponsors.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Tens of thousands demonstrate for ouster of Ye

More on why the U.S gives Egypt 2 billion dollars a year from Al-Jazeera:
Be sure to read the stuff at the bottom which I highlighted:

YEAH SURE , THE UNITED STATES STANDS FOR DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM IN THE WORLD.


US to reconsider aid to Egypt
White House officials are evaluating the annual package given to the embattled Egyptian government.
Laila Al-Arian Last Modified: 29 Jan 2011 15:54 GMT
Email ArticlePrint ArticleShare ArticleSend Feedback

A masked Egyptian protestors stands near Egyptian army's Republican Guards in central Cairo on January 29 [AFP]
In the aftermath of Egypt’s crackdown on protesters on Friday, Washington has announced it is reviewing its aid package to the country.

Egypt has received $28bn in assistance since 1975, according to the US Agency for International Development. While USAID's website says the funds have gone to programs devoted to health, trade and education – among other things – most US aid goes to Egypt's military.

Egypt receives close to $2bn in economic and military aid every year, making it the second largest recipient of US foreign assistance after Israel. Of that, $1.3bn is devoted to military assistance, according to the Congressional Research Service, the public policy arm of the US congress.

One third of Egypt's military aid is used to upgrade its weapons systems - in essence to replace older Soviet weapons with US arms, according to a CRS report.

During the past four days of protests, it's been widely reported that tear gas canisters fired at protesters are stamped "Made in USA".

Among the weapons the US has provided Egypt: F-4 jet aircraft, F-16 jet fighters, armoured personnel carriers, Apache helicopters, antiaircraft missile batteries, and aerial surveillance aircraft, according to the US State Department.

In addition to modernising Egypt's military hardware, the US participates in joint military exercises with the Arab world's most populous nation, including Operation Bright Start, the largest event of its kind in the region.

The basis of US assistance to the country is the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty of 1979, which promised aid to Egypt in return for maintaining the agreement. The US largely views Egypt as a moderating force in the Arab world and a key mediator in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

CRITICS OF WASHINGTON"S POLICY TOWARDS Egypt argue that the financial assistance does not curry favor with the Egyptian people.

Writing for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in 2009, Ahmad Al-Sayed El-Naggar said the money "does not aim to strengthen Egyptian military power against any external threat, as this would be contrary to the declared US objective of ensuring Israeli security and maintaining Israeli military supremacy over its Arab neighbors, including Egypt.

INSTEAD THIS AID IS DEVOTED MAINLY TO STRENGTHENING THE REGIME'S DOMESTIC SECURITY AND IT'S ABILITY TO CONFRONT POPULAR MOVEMENTS

Last December, a leaked US cable released by WikiLeaks revealed there is frustration on the part of Egyptian military officials who believe the $1.3bn a year in military aid is not enough.

According to the cable, the deputy assistant secretary of defence for the Middle East, Dr. Colin Kahl, told them it was unlikely that the US would increase its aid given the "difficult financial times".

He did, however, reassure the Egyptian officials that the US government would continue to advocate for current levels of military assistance, the cable states, "and push back on any attempts to condition those funds".

[Gen]

Re: Tens of thousands demonstrate for ouster of Ye

And then when dem ready dem a bawl bout how dem need fi cut spending helloooo how bout start cut it deh suh ? Mek Israel find di money fi pay people fi be dem friend.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SueSumba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;Tonight, let us be clear: The United States of America stands with the people of <span style="text-decoration: line-through"> </span> Egypt, and supports the democratic aspirations of all people,&quot; Obama said.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Click to reveal.. <input type="button" class="form-button" value="Show me!" onclick="toggle_spoiler(this, 'Yikes, my eyes!', 'Show me!')" /></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div style="display: none;">while writing the aid cheque for $1.3B yearly </div></div></div>

</div></div>

look like di wife n son have most of dat 1.3b in di 100 suitcases dem reach London wid </div></div>

[R_C]

Re: is Egypt, the M.E's Berlin Wall moment?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah criticized the protesters and expressed support for Mr. Mubarak.</div></div>

Surprise !

Tell you one thing though, if this spreads to the streets of Riyadh, many of us will be riding bicycles to work.

[evanovitch]

Re: is Egypt, the M.E's Berlin Wall moment?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rollin_Calf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah criticized the protesters and expressed support for Mr. Mubarak.</div></div>

Surprise !

Tell you one thing though, if this spreads to the streets of Riyadh, <span style="font-weight: bold">many of us will be riding bicycles to work</span>. </div></div>

hell no...we could use some of our reserves and buy elsewhere...the ongle reason the US says it is dependent on SA oil is due to the political ties bet the two nations...n not even the nations but some families in the US

this may be a Berlin Wall moment fi many issues including the oil one....

[johnnycakes]

Re: is Egypt, the M.E's Berlin Wall moment?????

RC,
Not so. Whichever government is in power in any given oil country, has to sell that oil to finance the country's domestic needs.
Oil is fungible. The U.S sells it's Alaska oil to Japan and buys Saudi and Venezuelan oil because the transportation costs are cheaper. No country dependent on oil revenues (which means all countries with oil to sell) can withhold its oil and once it is on a tanker, that tanker can go anywhere it wants and sell to anyone with money.

The price of oil is always going to go up and especially now that the planet has reached the halfway point in extracting what there is and getting the rest out becomes more difficult and more expensive.

[johnnycakes]

Re: is Egypt, the M.E's Berlin Wall moment?????

This from Al Jazeera:

&quot;3:47pm Al Arabiya is reporting that the Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas phoned Hosni Mubarak to offer his support.&quot;


In light of the Wikileak Palestinean papers release that showed the incredible treachery of Abbas and the Palestinean Authority (Fatah linked) this statement supporting a dictatorship that OPPOSES the will of the Palestinean people should come as no surprise and should earn Abbas a bullet in the head in the near future.

[evanovitch]

the issue wich will decide how this all plays out

is the SUEZ CANAL....Britain's silence is telling fi me....

[Xavier]

Re: the issue wich will decide how this all plays out

Britain and some other countries have to remain silent because they don't want to see a leadership change....Better the devil you know, then the devil that you don't?

[R_C]

Re: is Egypt, the M.E's Berlin Wall moment?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RC,
Not so. Whichever government is in power in any given oil country, has to sell that oil to finance the country's domestic needs.
Oil is fungible. The U.S sells it's Alaska oil to Japan and buys Saudi and Venezuelan oil because the transportation costs are cheaper. No country dependent on oil revenues (which means all countries with oil to sell) can withhold its oil and once it is on a tanker, that tanker can go anywhere it wants and sell to anyone with money.

The price of oil is always going to go up and especially now that the planet has reached the halfway point in extracting what there is and getting the rest out becomes more difficult and more expensive. </div></div>

jc, you misunderstood me. SA does not have to &quot;withhold&quot; oil to send the markets into an upward spiral. In 2008 oil reached $145/barrel without there being any street protests in the Kingdom. And many people did in fact take to public transportation and bicycles at that time as I recall (not necessarily a bad thing). One can only imagine what would happen were the pro-democracy movement to move over to SA.

As far as tankers going anywhere they want and selling to anyone with money, you, more than many I am positive, are aware that how crude oil is traded and sold is just a tad more complicated than that.

[Gen]

Re: Tens of thousands demonstrate for ouster of Ye

Suh what now dem a seh ? That he ordered all law enforcement off the streets (coupled wid di fact dat some a dem seh dem fraid a di crowd)

him seh if a chaos di people want den is that dem a guh get ( most likely in the hopes that the citizens will beg him fi restore order)

mi read dat dem looting artifacts \o/

[evanovitch]

Re: the issue wich will decide how this all plays out

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xavier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Britain and some other countries have to remain silent because they don't want to see a leadership change....Better the devil you know, then the devil that you don't? </div></div>

that old US foreign policy dictum has done nothing for the reputation of the US n their claim as proponents of freedom n democracy in the world

especially now for OBAMA, this is s defining moment...especially in light of the revelations that Israel has been disingenuous much less downright dishonest in its claims re wanting peace n who n wat was stopping said peaceful resolution


Egypt is different from odda Arab countries in that the level of education is high....most of those young people demonstration are university grads wid at least a first degree....their fight is for employment ...religion is not the impetus....

but yes, fringe groups will come forward wen the heavy hand of Mubarak is removed but time moves on an the US has stated that it wants democracy in the ME...it cant juss want it if is wen it go n fight fi it n set up the version dem want...

[johnnycakes]

Re: is Egypt, the M.E's Berlin Wall moment?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rollin_Calf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RC,
Not so. Whichever government is in power in any given oil country, has to sell that oil to finance the country's domestic needs.
Oil is fungible. The U.S sells it's Alaska oil to Japan and buys Saudi and Venezuelan oil because the transportation costs are cheaper. No country dependent on oil revenues (which means all countries with oil to sell) can withhold its oil and once it is on a tanker, that tanker can go anywhere it wants and sell to anyone with money.

The price of oil is always going to go up and especially now that the planet has reached the halfway point in extracting what there is and getting the rest out becomes more difficult and more expensive. </div></div>

jc, you misunderstood me. SA does not have to &quot;withhold&quot; oil to send the markets into an upward spiral. In 2008 oil reached $145/barrel without there being any street protests in the Kingdom. And many people did in fact take to public transportation and bicycles at that time as I recall (not necessarily a bad thing). One can only imagine what would happen were the pro-democracy movement to move over to SA.

As far as tankers going anywhere they want and selling to anyone with money, you, more than many I am positive, are aware that how crude oil is traded and sold is just a tad more complicated than that. </div></div>



RC
Market prices ARE often determined by perceptions rather than the realities on the ground and so yes, the price may shoot up in the uncertainty.
That said those OPEC nations HAVE to sell their oil and no OPEC nation can withhold its oil from any particular country as oil is a fungible commodity.

A pro-democracy movement is highly unlikely in Saudi Arabia IMO.

Yep, time for electric cars and bicycles coming up.

[johnnycakes]

Re: the issue wich will decide how this all plays out


but yes, fringe groups will come forward wen the heavy hand of Mubarak is removed but time moves on an the US has stated that it wants democracy in the ME...it cant juss want it if is wen it go n fight fi it n set up the version dem want... [/quote]

Evanovitch,
The Palestineans had free and fair elections and HAMAS won.
The U.S has labelled them a terrorist group.

In Lebanon they had free and fair elections and HEZBOLLA won.
The U.S. has labelled them a terrorist group.

In Egypt there is a strong likelihood the Muslim Brotherhood will rise to power.
I would guess (not sure) that the U.S also classifies them as terrorist.

The United States has always A-L-W-A-Y-S supported dictators as long as they were/are pro-capitalist and anti-socialist no matter how horrid they were and are.
Their talk of supporting &quot;freedom and democracy&quot; is totally LIES.

No matter who comes out on top in Egypt the Suez Canal will remain open. IMO

[johnnycakes]

Re: the issue wich will decide how this all plays out

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xavier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Britain and some other countries have to remain silent because they don't want to see a leadership change....Better the devil you know, then the devil that you don't? </div></div>

Not quite Xavier,
It's &quot;Better the devil you know than democracy.&quot; in just about every instance.