France Bans Muslim Women from Wearing Burkas

[RichD]

Re: france bans burka

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Perhaps this is what the French is trying to head off ... maybe this is what they see coming and don't want ...
<span style="font-style: italic">
(I've no sarcasm here - just asking)</span> </div></div>Like I said upthread all that &quot;prevention&quot; sometimes pushes non-practitioners towards extreme behaviors. </div></div>

from the story Yuri linked
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Naima Bouteldja interviewed 32 women who wear the niqab for the Open Society Foundation, a nongovernmental organization. She found none who said they had been forced to wear the veil, and 10 said they started wearing the niqab as a response to the political controversy. Eight of the 32 were French converts to Islam; a third said they did not wear the niqab all the time.</div></div>

[Yuriatin]

Re: france bans burka

They're already extreme!

But there's the rub - one man's <span style="font-style: italic">extreme</span>, is another man's <span style="font-style: italic">norm</span>.

Some societies/ religions find NOTHING wrong with having five 13 year old wives, not giving their female children an education, not letting their wife leave the house at all. If said person moves to America, France, UK - and these are tenants of his 'religion' - then what??
<span style="font-style: italic">
( ok, ok - no jokes about this happening in Kentucky - y'all know what I'm saying - this is specifically in the context of this particular subject matter)</span>



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Perhaps this is what the French is trying to head off ... maybe this is what they see coming and don't want ...
<span style="font-style: italic">
(I've no sarcasm here - just asking)</span> </div></div>Like I said upthread all that &quot;prevention&quot; sometimes pushes non-practitioners towards extreme behaviors. </div></div>

[Blackstar*]

Re: france bans burka

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">from the story Yuri linked
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Naima Bouteldja interviewed 32 women who wear the niqab for the Open Society Foundation, a nongovernmental organization. She found none who said they had been forced to wear the veil, and <span style="font-weight: bold">10 said they started wearing the niqab as a response to the political controversy. </span>Eight of the 32 were French converts to Islam; a third said they did not wear the niqab all the time.</div></div> </div></div>Although the sample size is tiny, 10 out of 32 is a lot, i.e. just over 30%.

[Blackstar*]

Re: france bans burka

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They're already extreme!</div></div>Huh? Wha? Are you saying that Muslim = extreme or are we talking at cross-purposes?

I gave anecdotal evidence of <span style="font-weight: bold">non-practising Muslims </span>who then become fervent after police harrassment, authorities making allegations, etc.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some societies/ religions find NOTHING wrong with having five 13 year old wives, not giving their female children an education, not letting their wife leave the house at all. If said person moves to America, France, UK - and these are tenants of his 'religion' - then what??</div></div>Those are not tenents of Islam. Not all Muslims do this and some Christians do. You think the man in Austria who held his daughter in a cellar for 20 years and breed her up was a Muslim? Those pedophiles that US and European police round up are generally white and nominally Christian.

[Yuriatin]

Re: france bans burka

No - I'm not saying that muslim = extreme.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They're already extreme!</div></div>Huh? Wha? Are you saying that Muslim = extreme or are we talking at cross-purposes?

I gave anecdotal evidence of <span style="font-weight: bold">non-practising Muslims </span>who then become fervent after police harrassment, authorities making allegations, etc. </div></div>

[Blackstar*]

Re: france bans burka

Then I don't understand your comments.

[Yuriatin]

Re: france bans burka

Ok - then I must have replied to your post, not fully understanding what <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> were saying.

Where the ban is concerned, some are against it, some for it, some undecided, on the fence - almost everyone thinks <span style="font-weight: bold">their </span>position is the right one. We all have different opinions on the matter and I guess, that's ok.

Mine is, I understand feeling uncomfortable with the covering. I wouldn't be against, France banning it at all.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then I don't understand your comments. </div></div>

[X]

Re: france bans burka

in my minute mediocre mind, it is simple, &quot;too much a one thing nuh good&quot;.. I guess another way of saying beware of extremism.

Why is the Burqa worn? is it because extreme muslim beliefs are that certain womens' face is a corruption (to men)?
If so, even if we could put the dicomfort and disregard of others within that society aside, how can such a practice be defended in a society that generally does not have the same beliefs?

[RichD]

Re: france bans burka

what is being defended is not the specific practice of wearing a burqa but rather the belief that in a free society anybody should be able to wear what they want to express any belief they want.

I have no problems around reasonable rules like showing your face for official identification purposes

[X]

Re: france bans burka

so the nudist should be able to walk nude and members of the Order of the Solar Temple should be allowed to arrange religious suicides and murders.. afterall, its their beliefs and should be honored in a free society..

Your &quot;reasoning&quot; seems a bit selective and convenient bossman..
<span style="font-style: italic">this is what is concerning as it is clear to me that you are a very intelligent person.. .. </span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is being defended is not the specific practice of wearing a burqa but rather the belief that in a free society anybody should be able to wear what they want to express any belief they want.

I have no problems around reasonable rules like showing your face for official identification purposes </div></div>

[RichD]

Re: france bans burka

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pleXxed</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so the nudist should be able to walk nude and members of the Order of the Solar Temple should be allowed to arrange religious suicides and murders.. afterall, its their beliefs and should be honored in a free society..

Your &quot;reasoning&quot; seems a bit selective and convenient bossman..
<span style="font-style: italic">this is what is concerning as it is clear to me that you are a very intelligent person.. if this reasoning was coming from an ediiot I would understand.. </span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is being defended is not the specific practice of wearing a burqa but rather the belief that in a free society anybody should be able to wear what they want to express any belief they want.

I have no problems around reasonable rules like showing your face for official identification purposes </div></div> </div></div>


1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it <span style="font-weight: bold">subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.</span>
Fundamental Freedoms

Fundamental freedoms

2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.


this is what i base my thesis on.

i have not yet seen demonstrable justification that the limiting of the wearing of the burqa in any way benefits society as a whole.


personally i think nudist should be able to walk around nude if they feel like it..i don't see any need pass a law banning it

[X]

Re: france bans burka

You do understand that Burqa &quot;ban&quot; in France is a (legal) law correct?
While the convenient regurgitation of &quot;CANADIAN charter of rights may seem witty, respectfully, that has <span style="font-weight: bold">no</span> relevance in this discussion.

You may want to review this article. Hopefully it will help to articulate and illuminate where I have obviously failed ..

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/04/13/france-brave-right-ban-burqa/

<span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-style: italic">&quot;France is brave and right to ban the burqa. There is no reason for a modern Western country to honor what is, essentially, a political statement and an ethnic and misogynistic custom. <span style="font-weight: bold">Banning the burqa is not infringing on religious freedom but is, rather, a principled blow against the Talibanesque and barbaric subordination of Muslim women on Western soil</span>.&quot;</span></span>

[neutral]

Re: france bans burka

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is being defended is not the specific practice of wearing a burqa but rather the belief that in a free society anybody should be able to wear what they want to express any belief they want.

</div></div>

The problem is that the wearing of a burka has absolutely nothing to do with religion,that would be like christians saying they are intolerant towards gays because it says they should in the bible,...everyone can interpret whatever they want to justify whatever actions they take in the name of their religion,there is no where in the koran that it suggests anyone should wear a burka,it tells them that women should dress *modestly*...not cover their faces in public.

In any event,there are a great deal of burka wearers that do it simply to make a point,when the issue was pretty hot here in the UK,quite suddenly you couldnt walk down the street without tripping over a burka clad effalump,....the majority of them doing it to put a middle finger up at those who spoke out against it.
In my opinion if you feel so strongly that your religion clashes with the culture that you live in,and if your religion is so important to you then go where you can practise it without being criticised or told what not to wear.

[RichD]

Re: france bans burka

I at no time questioned the legality of what they did ...i questioned the motivation.

i see your fox news opinion piece and raise you one new york times opinion piece

<span style="font-style: italic">Government-Enforced Bigotry in France
Published: April 11, 2011

The formal imposition on Monday of the French ban on the full-face veil, which led to the prompt arrest of two women protesting the law, has been accompanied by the usual government invocations of French values, as well as issues of security and gender equality.

But there’s no question about the real purpose of this giant step backward — or of an earlier law banning Muslim veils in schools, or the “debates” organized by President Nicolas Sarkozy’s party, Union for a Popular Movement, on “French identity” and secularism. They are all cynical attacks on Islam, the religion of about a tenth of France’s population, to curry favor with France’s increasingly anti-immigrant right wing.

Barring the niqab from government buildings, public services, streets and entertainment venues has been the most passionately debated of these measures, with some arguing that it is a symbol of the subjugation of women. But only a tiny handful of France’s five million to six million Muslims ever don the full veil, and their decision to do so is patently not the business of the government or the police.

The ban serves only to encourage the spread of Muslim-bashing in France and elsewhere in Europe, helped along by statements like this one from the interior minister, Claude Guéant, blatantly portraying Islam as a religion alien to France: “There is no reason why the nation should accord to one particular religion more rights than religions that were formerly anchored in our country.”

Fortunately, even some of Mr. Sarkozy’s own officials have seen through these ploys. The prime minister, François Fillon, quietly put an end to the embarrassing “national debate” on French identity a year ago, and, more recently, he refused to take part in a similarly tainted debate on secularism. All major religious leaders, including the Catholic archbishop of Paris, Cardinal André Vingt-Trois, also shunned the discussion.

Mr. Sarkozy and the rest of his party should follow these examples and stop their shameless exploitation of intolerance for political gain.</span>

[Yuriatin]

Re: france bans burka

Amen.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Natral_browning</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is being defended is not the specific practice of wearing a burqa but rather the belief that in a free society anybody should be able to wear what they want to express any belief they want.

</div></div>

The problem is that the wearing of a burka has absolutely nothing to do with religion,that would be like christians saying they are intolerant towards gays because it says they should in the bible,...everyone can interpret whatever they want to justify whatever actions they take in the name of their religion,there is no where in the koran that it suggests anyone should wear a burka,it tells them that women should dress *modestly*...not cover their faces in public.

In any event,there are a great deal of burka wearers that do it simply to make a point,when the issue was pretty hot here in the UK,quite suddenly you couldnt walk down the street without tripping over a burka clad effalump,....the majority of them doing it to put a middle finger up at those who spoke out against it.
In my opinion if you feel so strongly that your religion clashes with the culture that you live in,and if your religion is so important to you then go where you can practise it without being criticised or told what not to wear. </div></div>