6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

**Cultcha** · 03-09-2012, 10:16 AM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

This comment was posted by a reader on the Observer's website...

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">Whenever the police done something what people believe is wrong everybody come forward but when a gangster cut off a citizen head no one knows nothing.</span>then we talk about how much we want to see murder rate reduce,what is good for the goose must be good for gander...</span>

**Tuff Gong** · 03-09-2012, 10:53 AM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KF_Milo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This comment was posted by a reader on the Observer's website...

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">Whenever the police done something what people believe is wrong everybody come forward but when a gangster cut off a citizen head no one knows nothing.</span>then we talk about how much we want to see murder rate reduce,what is good for the goose must be good for gander...</span> </div></div>

A. Whenever a Gangster cuts off the head of citizen ......there is a huge uproar.
B. Equating the actions of a Gangster with a trained Policeman/ooman is a sure sign that the commentator is clueless, mad, dishonest and/or all of the above.

Precisely the point I am trying to make the use of dishonest opinion(s)/false statistics to justify the extra-Judicial operations of the Agents of the State.

**SmoothOperator** · 03-09-2012, 11:34 AM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

I certainly agree that the JLP has little moral authority after the West Kingston fiasco. But if the MP is not going to be an advocate for the people what is the point of having an MP or an opposition party. They need to earn their pay and be a forceful opposition party and advocate for equal rights and justice for the people or we might as well save tax payer dollars and go with one party rule.

**Tuff Gong** · 03-09-2012, 09:02 PM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TreyJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I certainly agree that the JLP has little moral authority after the West Kingston fiasco. But if the MP is not going to be an advocate for the people what is the point of having an MP or an opposition party. They need to earn their pay and be a forceful opposition party and advocate for equal rights and justice for the people or we might as well save tax payer dollars and go with one party rule. </div></div>
Mr. Seaga was ....did you see where it got him among even his own?
BTW Desmond McKenzie is the MP not Drew, have you tracked the number of times Tivoli and Denham Town was invaded since 2005 and his response?
I thing he is the worst MHR they are going to get (can anyone be worse than Bruised?), because he is severely compromised.

West Kingston and Tivoli deserve better. What they need was a young activist Lawyer to be the MHR or if not Drew should have taken the Seat.
The fact the the JLP did not do the right thing for West Kingston questions the Party's commitment to real progress.

**Tuff Gong** · 03-10-2012, 12:57 PM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

<span style="font-weight: bold">Deadly operations make policing more difficult...says Holness</span>
<span style="font-style: italic">BY MARK CUMMINGS Editor-at-Large, Western Bureau [email protected]</span>
Saturday, March 10, 2012

MONTEGO BAY, St James — Opposition Leader Andrew Holness says police operations, such as the one conducted in West Kingston on Monday in which six persons were killed, will only serve to make the job of the police more difficult.
"Regardless of how terrible crime is in our country, we do ourselves a greater injustice when we pursue the fight against crime oblivious to the effect of collateral damage on our citizens. In fact, it does more damage to the crime fighting," Holness argued, noting that a significant plank of the Jamaica Labour Party (JLP) administration's crime-fighting strategy was to build community support.
He said killing innocent people in communities will drive a wedge between the residents and the police.
"... It dries up the information flow; it makes the police access to the communities difficult, and it set up the basis for a war between the citizens and the police," he argued.
The Opposition leader, who was addressing a Generation 2000 (G2K) forum in Montego Bay on Thursday night, was speaking against the background of recent police operations across the island in which 45 civilians have been killed by the police since January.
The West Kingston incident, in which those fatally shot included a 13-year-old girl and two men in their 60's, resulted in an outcry from the public as well as human rights group Jamaicans for Justice (JFJ).
The Police High Command has since promised to review operations carried out across the island between last Thursday and Monday, which accounted for 16 of the 45 killings.
Thursday, Holness reminded the gathering at the forum that it is the job of the police to protect and serve the innocent people of the country, arguing that "in your pursuit of criminals, your first job is to protect the innocent."
"Your crime-fighting strategy will only be strong and successful when every citizen is a crime fighter with the police. But if you create a situation where the citizens see the police as an enemy, then we have a problem," he explained.
He called on the Minister of National Security Peter Bunting to review operations carried out by the police and to ensure that "no further operation is conducted in such a way, so as to place the lives of innocent law-abiding citizens at risk."

**barosa** · 03-10-2012, 05:28 PM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Deadly operations make policing more difficult...says Holness</span>
<span style="font-style: italic">BY MARK CUMMINGS Editor-at-Large, Western Bureau [email protected]</span>
Saturday, March 10, 2012

MONTEGO BAY, St James — Opposition Leader Andrew Holness says police operations, such as the one conducted in West Kingston on Monday in which six persons were killed, will only serve to make the job of the police more difficult.
"Regardless of how terrible crime is in our country, we do ourselves a greater injustice when we pursue the fight against crime oblivious to the effect of collateral damage on our citizens. In fact, it does more damage to the crime fighting," Holness argued, noting that a significant plank of the Jamaica Labour Party (JLP) administration's crime-fighting strategy was to build community support.
He said killing innocent people in communities will drive a wedge between the residents and the police.
"... It dries up the information flow; it makes the police access to the communities difficult, and it set up the basis for a war between the citizens and the police," he argued.
The Opposition leader, who was addressing a Generation 2000 (G2K) forum in Montego Bay on Thursday night, was speaking against the background of recent police operations across the island in which 45 civilians have been killed by the police since January.
The West Kingston incident, in which those fatally shot included a 13-year-old girl and two men in their 60's, resulted in an outcry from the public as well as human rights group Jamaicans for Justice (JFJ).
The Police High Command has since promised to review operations carried out across the island between last Thursday and Monday, which accounted for 16 of the 45 killings.
Thursday, Holness reminded the gathering at the forum that it is the job of the police to protect and serve the innocent people of the country, arguing that "in your pursuit of criminals, your first job is to protect the innocent."
"Your crime-fighting strategy will only be strong and successful when every citizen is a crime fighter with the police. But if you create a situation where the citizens see the police as an enemy, then we have a problem," he explained.
He called on the Minister of National Security Peter Bunting to review operations carried out by the police and to ensure that "no further operation is conducted in such a way, so as to place the lives of innocent law-abiding citizens at risk." </div></div>

Are we witnessing the age old PNP support for the police ? If so, it's regretable..
The foll. link already posted in this thread re: the statement by the Police Federation seems to verify it.. It would appear that the police believe that they are untouchable in questions asked about their "Operation in crime prevention" Why would they lash out against the newly elected Leader of the Opposition? unless they are telling him to "butt out" Are we a democracy or What?

Page not found | Jamaica Gleaner

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/latest/article.php?id=35769

_______________________________________________

Blessed is the sun, it doesn't discriminate, it shines on everyone..

**Dr.Dudd** · 03-10-2012, 08:05 PM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KF_Milo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This comment was posted by a reader on the Observer's website...

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">Whenever the police done something what people believe is wrong everybody come forward but when a gangster cut off a citizen head no one knows nothing.</span>then we talk about how much we want to see murder rate reduce,what is good for the goose must be good for gander...</span> </div></div>What is so unusual about that reaction?
Would you risk the safety of your family by openly siding with the police who cannot secure you against the criminals when the police and all others are safely secured and you in the community without even a night stick to secure your families? everybody expect poor black people life is expendable.
they are quick to demand if them risks that they wouldnt expect from people of other race.
How many of you would even expect a white person to live in those communities?
ofcourse if would be too dangerous but a black person who support the police is not! Right!!?

**bee_bop** · 03-10-2012, 09:14 PM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

<span style="font-weight: bold">Premature Human Rights outcry against Police</span>
The response of Human Rights organizations to the Denham Town gun-battle is premature, because they do not have any legal forensic reports on the incident. If an exchange of gunfire occurs, between Police and gunmen, then it would be very difficult to say who shot who, without a proper forensic examination of the crime scene.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Facts on bullets that impact a hard surface</span>
When bullets impact on a hard surface they tend to do one of three things:
1. Disintegrate;
2. The surface (such as a wall) disintegrates, which is usually the case with an AK-47 (also known in the U.S. as the cop-killer); or,
3. The bullet ricochets, like a billiard ball on a pool table, in accord with the Laws of Mechanics in Physics.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Suggestion by previous Commissioner of Police</span>
A previous Commissioner of Police had made the suggestion to use a low-powered assault rifle known as the Heckler & Koch MP5, which is suited to close range situations, and minimizes collateral damage (i.e. damage to buildings, and injury or death to human beings).

<span style="font-weight: bold">Jamaican crime scene up to the mid-seventies</span>
Of course, there is no control over criminals, otherwise the situation would be what it was like prior to the mid-seventies in Jamaica, where death by violence was very rare, let alone gun-violence. In those days there was little need for Police, and they were largely unarmed, except for the occasional baton.

<span style="font-weight: bold">A bag of rumors is what it is</span>
I believe this whole outcry is just a lot of rumor-mongering, intended to discredit the new government of Jamaica by using the security forces as scape-goats. All reminiscent of the days when as the security forces merely approach Tivoli Gardens there were cries that they intended to abuse human rights. We used to hear that there were, either: no gunmen in Tivoli; or, they had no guns; or, the gunmen with guns were necessary to protect Tivoli residents. Until, of course, gunmen made a coordinated, well-planned and executed assault on several Police stations, burning two, and besieging the others, and placing their occupants in mortal danger.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #000099">Human Rights is necessary, but not to cause rumors</span></span>
It's good that Jamaicans are so well represented by Human Rights organizations, including Amnesty International. However, I believe their involvement is highly misguided, particularly by those who seek any reason to embarrass a government before it even has a chance to make a real mistake.

**Tuff Gong** · 03-10-2012, 09:30 PM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Premature Human Rights outcry against Police</span>
The response of Human Rights organizations to the Denham Town gun-battle .... </div></div>

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]The response was not about Denham Town Killings.[*]The response was based on 22 men killed in 6 days in alleged shoot-outs each; contested bitterly by residents.[*]In none of the incidents did the Police properly secure the crime scene so the forensic evidence cannot be relied on.[*]The Police admitted that there was collateral damage in the Denham Town Shooting[*]The Police did not properly account for the victims in the Denham Town Shootings.more bodies killed or injured than so-called wanted men.[*]For a so-called planned raid it seems the Security Forces did not make provision for expected dead and injured.
A. No body bags
B. No Ambulances
C. No Black Maria[*]<span style="font-weight: bold">IDECOM</span>, the body responsible for Scenes Of Crime when police shootings is involved, was prevented from accessing the Crime Scene.[*]The preponderance of evidence pointed to the State randomly targeting and executing Denham and Montego Bay Love Lane residents.[*]Human Rights activists do not and should not wait for forensic evidence from the Police to criticize Police actions, especially given sad, bloody history of Jamaica's State Agents and their Political bosses.[/list]

**R_C** · 03-10-2012, 09:48 PM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I believe this whole outcry is just a lot of rumor-mongering..</div></div>

"Rumor" ? What "rumor" ?? What is it that you are calling a rumor ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">" All reminiscent of the days when as the security forces <span style="font-weight: bold">merely approach</span> Tivoli Gardens there were cries that they intended to abuse human rights."</div></div>

"merely approach" ? "intended to abuse human rights" ?? Is that your take on what the citizens of Jamaica who live in Tivoli have been subjected to over the years ?

Littlleman where were you in 1997, when the police invaded Tivoli Gardens from the air and land, firing indiscriminately at residents and killing men, women and children ?

Where were you in 2001 when Renato Adams, invaded Tivoli Gardens and 27 persons were shot and killed, their dead bodies left on the streets to rot ???.

Where were you in May last year when police and soldiers conducted a three day raid in Tivoli Gardens killing almost a hundred residents in the process ??

**bee_bop** · 03-10-2012, 10:46 PM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

<span style="font-weight: bold">I shouldn't even respond to your posting RC, as I know where this is all headed. I suppose I haven't yet learned my lesson, so here I go...
</span>
Considering that bullets don't always take straight paths, as explained in my original posting, how can people proceed to make accusations as to the origin of the bullets involved, and the original aiming point of the weapons they originated from, is that rational? People who accuse the police solely are merely vaguely speculating about 'who shot who'. Also, are the gunmen completely innocent, certainly not, because they may even have more powerful weapons, such as the AK-47?

I don't think some residents of Tivoli have any respect for the rest of Jamaica, they have been brought up on the idea that whenever law enforcement enters their community they should immediately cry murder, and call for the attention of Human Rights organizations, who then proceed to offer them legal sanctuary especially after they lost the physical sanctuary sometime ago. This idea that there are <span style="font-style: italic">angels</span> in Tivoli Gardens who are always the victims of state authorities doesn't wash with me.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The Tivoli insurgency</span>
<span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">This may hurt some, but IMHO, the Tivoli operation was an anti-insurgency operation, to remove a well-organized, heavily-armed, militia that had begun a deadly assault on the state. By the time the military intervened they had already set-fire to two Police stations, and had besieged several others. Two Police men had by then lost their lives in an ambush, as the lawmen attempted to rescue people they thought were in danger.</span>

As the Tivoli assault was against the state, they are guilty of treason, and in other countries, even the very democratic United States of America, such an act can be punishable by death. No organized country is going to tolerate threats to its existence, even if it means taking preemptive action. Case in point, the United States government has assassinated one of its citizens abroad who it deemed was plotting to commit attacks from outside the United States, against other citizens of the country. By that standard, Tivoli got off light.

Only in Jamaica can a group of people plot to commit subversive acts of treason against the state, and expect to be treated as other law-breakers. I wonder what would have happened had these people succeeded in defeating the security forces? Certainly the lust for power wouldn't stop there, it would be on to Parliament, and the ransacking of the city. No doubt, the U.S., Britain, and other countries would have had to send their own soldiers to rescue foreigners, and guarantee their safe passage out of the country. As for Jamaicans, the lucky few would be behind wire fences waiting for some benevolent government to offer them refuge. The rest of Jamaica would be struggling to make ends meet, as the entire social system collapsed.</span>

**R_C** · 03-10-2012, 11:20 PM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

Who said anything about "angels" living in Tivoli gardens ? In any event, go ahead and attack your own straw man if you wish.

Littleman you seem very comfortable with the fact that men, women and children in Tivoli Gardens who were never been found guilty of anything other than living there, have repeatedly come under fire from police and soldiers, and in many instances, have died in the process.

So, is the summary execution of Jamaicans who had not committed any of the acts that were the premise for these raids OK with you ? Are they just "collateral damage" and don't matter ?

**bee_bop** · 03-10-2012, 11:48 PM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

The extent of collateral damage is determined by the caliber of the weapons involved, and how they are employed in a gunfight. Ideally, there shouldn't be a need for Police to have such weapons, but the reality of the situation dictates otherwise.

<span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">Jamaicans should be able to disarm, and avoid the circumstances that would give rise to the use of such weapons, like in Britain, or in the younger Jamaica prior to the mid-seventies.</span></span>

**R_C** · 03-10-2012, 11:51 PM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

Thanks for avoiding the question.

**Tuff Gong** · 03-11-2012, 03:51 AM

Re: 6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Considering that bullets don't always take straight paths, as explained in my original posting, </div></div>

Bullets/Warheads/Projectiles have a certain trajectory it is down to an exact science (plus or minus a few seconds). Without this one could not aim at a target and expect to hit it with any certainty.

But all of this is nonsensical verbiage, since you have arrived at your judgement based on the premise you accused the Human Rights Organizations of....the lack of forensic analysis. You have not even (it appears bother to look at the news reports of the incidents and what the Human Rights Orgs held a Press Conference about).
Not only that you have extended your dishonest arguments to claim that this is just a ruse to put pressure on the new Government.
22 men killed in six days by the Police is a rouse to put pressure on the State <span style="font-style: italic">(or is this not part of it)</span>?

This is in the face of:<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]numerous reports of residents taking issue with the police version, including a fiery display in Montego Bay.[*]the PNP MP asking for a speedy inquiry.[*]the Minister of National Security asking the Commissioner Of Police to review his operations.[*]the two daily papers that are nominally Police mouthpieces, writing Editorials that took issue with the Security Forces methods, even as they stood by its sides.[*]the Public Defender questioning the efficacy of the Police reports of shoot-outs claim, when no Police personnel and/or Assets suffered any injuries <span style="font-style: italic">(as much as one would not like to see this actually happen)</span>.[*]The Commissioner Of Police himself agreeing that collateral damage is not helpful[/list].

6 killed in West Kgn in gunbattle

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