Michael Manley - National Hero?

[Q3210]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Looking at modern National Heroes and Heroes- elect, Anancy and Ginnal stand foremost in such esteemed company.

Let it be mindful, Michael Manley stood in front of one of the greatest lies this country ever beheld. The State of Emergency in 1976 was based off a LIE.
Manley befriended `Spy` Robinson a carrer convict had DK Duncan give him a gun and went about his tricks.
I can`t remember the prime details off hand, but it is there in the archives of the media somewhere.

[quodlibet]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Originally posted by Ackee:
There is really is no definite word that Michael would be honoured as a National Hero, I raised the question in light of my own gut feeling and the politcal windfall it would give the PNP, and wanted to explored the reaction if it was to become a reality.

Actually, there are at least two things that have already been worked out to be used as a "ace in the hole" for the PNP. These "cards" were already in place before the '97 elections, but they knew they could win without them. The first is the "right to strike" legislation, with a rider providing for easier inclusion into unions. If the PNP were to do that, even the BITU would give them support, stripping the JLP of part of their election machinery.

The second is "Micheal Manley - National Hero". This one won't fly until they are sure that they are in real trouble. The objective it achieves is similar to the national narcotics of sport (our international achievements, reggae boyz, etc), and entertainment. Distract the people, do what you want.

All honours (hero and otherwise) are bestowed through a process of recommendation to a non-political committee...as much as that can be in Jamaica's context...which then review the merits of any honour and grants its approval. In essence then it would not be technically correct to say that "the PNP" or any political party bestowed a honour.

Who is on this "non-political" committee? Most people who make it onto these "panels" are not openly partisan, but are very political...

[PILOT]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Yeah you claiming say the man lie but you have no facts Q...this is the nonsense I hate, we love the sus and rumours and love defame people even when their is not obvious, open evidence for all to see.

Especially when you dealing with people character please be careful...its not fair...

Jamaicans love this thing yu see, of chattin bout da politician deh thief money and dah one deh a him cause dem fi go shoot up di lane...and on and on...

I am sure the thought process behind the state of emergency was more than that Q...and certainly you were not working at Jamaica House when that happened were u???

[Q3210]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

I have learnt not to swear for anyone. Mike Manley was a great orator. He moved his enemies to tears by the words he used. He loved us all.

His accomplishments are there for us all as we live in Jamaica today.

Break down in discipline. Boys and men riding bicycles across the red lights at busy intersections. Men double parking for want of a word with another parked driver.
Boys wiping windshields a hazzard and potential risk to the security of lone women and elderly drivers who have been fleeced of necklaces and goods whilst waiting at traffic lights in the light of day.
Police who fire guns randomly into crowded areas after alleged suspects caring not if bystanders are hit.
Factories and industry coming down and grinding to a halt.
Workers after all the great benefits now being shown the gates of slavery, working for survival than for the joys of life, thanks too to cost effective measures and globaliazation in this competitive mad house of corporate imperialism.
Omnipresent power failures by the electric providers that just by the way made me lose a lot of what I was posting in reply to this thread.

If Michael didn`t do what he did, I would not have known the results as it is manifested today.
He alone is not the prime cause to our present predicament, but he was the leader who instilled a thought into the minds of many Jamaicans, where what was mine was yours.
A warped sense of egalatiraianism that comes with some socialist rhetoric.
He and Jamaica`s middle class were from one end of the scale to an extreme end of the other.

When he ushered many of them out on the 5 flights to Miami rhetoric, some of them bought it and flew leaving their birthright behind.

Where we villainized entepeneurship businesses and informers were made to be outcasts on the public blocks, hence the repercussions on prosecution witnesses of today, where justice be hampered.

Where police were given divine rights over that of the citizen in the passing and the practice of the Suppression Of Crimes Act of the 70`s, where my threshold could have been broken by agents of the state.
Where the Gun court was set up and suspects tried in camera by a resident magistrate who had the power to sentence convicts to life or to the hang man`s noose.
Justice which was supposed to be seen to be done was hidden behind closed doors on Camp Road.

Children murdered by men led by Manley who converged on Top Hill, St. Elizabeth.

Green Bay where 5 men from Southside were befriended and lured to a lonely spot and murdered by a officer of the JDF with a high powered automatic gun waiting in ambush with others of a squadron.

Recently, Michael..... a man of unsound mind, had his guts kicked out by agents of the state in a road block mounted in Waterhouse.

Agana Barrett and 2 other men picked up at random to be processed at the Constant spring Police station if they were linked to criminal activity, a balatant abuse on rights of citizens, suffocated to death in a tiny cell which held other men crammed like sardines in a can.

No one found responsible for neither.

West Kingston 20 odd murdered in one day of July 2001, no one responsible.

The list goes on and on. Yet I may be blind and misinformed and don`t know what`s going on in my country, because I was never at Jamaica House.

My friend, Jamaica House is for Grand Galas and dignitaries, not for small men.

In case you can`t identify apartheid, we are part of it in our little Jamaica way.

Class against class, not so much colour against colour.

Mike did a lot, yes and PJ continues the legacy.
Things will be better during the 4th term.

Mike was a great man. Years down the line history will reveal all that when our grandchildren reap the rewards of yesteryear and today.

[PILOT]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Q you sound like a man wrapping up his diappointments and frustration with qa peoples legacy...

All of What you talk about is a manifestation of society,

Any society you live in their are failures, disgraceful conduct, abuse of power and in writing Jamaica's history we seem to want to write it bad, and wicked, murder, even when they numbers are far small in terms of how much good we have been able to do, in bring laughter and artistic form that is colorful and positive in creating lasting bonds...

We want all Jamaicans to continue to think of their yard like its nothing good, and its not until some of these poor people reach farrin and in a debt trap and a cultural melting pot that they realise the quality of life they left behind... Good and bad and ugly for what it is.

No country has absolutle excellence without horror stories Q...but look at the progress... look at the fact that when You can live in a community in Jamaica with love and harmony....In America that rarely happens, their is a fakeness that is here...people say hello here and don't mean it...and plot within racial groups..plot i say based on skin colour and they continue to fragment...

Most societies of the world are polarised, stratified in many ways little Jamaica has less of that problem interms of socialisation of people, it is more accumulation of wealth that is dividing us...

Social Justice and Voluntary simplicity is something woven into the Jamaican identity because of the era of the 70's.

A classless society is what we wanted, socialism as Manley projected it in principle was about our society being governed by charity and kindness, togetherness in community work... and not by power and wealth...

I don't know if that is what has led to jamaicans believing that my own is yours in a criminal sense, but yes in principle yours being minds is how we should live, we should be willing to share, we should critique those who have riches and don't want to share... shame dem, for they want to live among a community while their next door neighbour don't have food to eat and dem using it to stone dog...

We should all be truly genuine, critique hypocracy shame the wicked Upper class and middle class yuppies who skin up thme nose on the kid who walk up to their screen a nd beg a $10, we should be fearless, and be more single minded as a people in how we pursue our destiny, that was what the social experiment was about, a atlernative to the hoarding of personal riches for oneself...and encourging sharing those who took those flights didn't have a reasonable heart they bought cynicism, and rumour mongering...


People must lend without an expectation of return that is the socialist principle..

Once their is enough for all of us to have then that is what should be our greatest concern and not necessarily the abundance of Cash...

Economics is the study of scarce resources and we think that we some who will be able to distribute what is scare equally...We shoudln't be concerned baout what is scarce but what is in abundant.

Eddie said it take cash to feed/care, I say no it takes heart, it takes a spirit of togetherness for us to feed thousands, and thats why Jamaica is alive today you think its the economic gurus that will save us... never...

Tolerance and a Unified community will get us farther along.. because those societies with great wealth usually collapse eventually, without much trace of their riches.Because they generally get drunk in power and the abuse of it...

Jamaica's future will be best secured if she sticks to a national cohesion, and fundamentally practice a the social order and social principles, the creation of wealth or money is what makes men heart bitter, beacuse they do anything to have this, while eroding the social infrastructure and capital.

[Q3210]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

I`ll never attempt to compare Jamaica past present and future with the USA.
From my days as a youth growing up in urban Jamaica in the 60`s I have seen a degeneration of quality life over-all.
Not in the sense of the number of Nikes on men`s feet nowadays or the # of cell phones on men riding trucks or the # of cars on the roads.
What I see is a degeneration of intellectualism. Men don`t read anymore. Usually the most that is read is a Caymanas Park Race horse programme and a booklet with definition of what numbers mean so that when you dream about a married woman, you buy #8 in the National Lotto.
Women bleach their skins thinking that beauty is all about colour and hair texture and not what is inside.
Material life has eroded what the church has supposed to have engrained in each of us about the enrichment of our souls.
We see churches nowadays as places of Jubilee and Hulabaloo where folks go and have a wild swing clapping hands and stomping feet and bawling out the name of Jesus in gay abandon.
Years ago, the years that I was fortunate to have lived as a youth, I saw common decency instilled in those of us who had Aunts and Grandmothers even if our mothers and fathers were missing.
When a policeman was seeing coming in our direction, by respect we tucked our shirts in our pants. At school we never questioned disciplinary action by our teachers. We would be ashamed to go home and complain to our parents, else we get another strapping to compound the wails on our hind quarters.
Today, parents confront teachers directly about methods instead of going through the proper channels like seeking audience with the principal first.
We are all impressed today in loudness and erratic sounds we call kulcha music.
If you complain about the noise you are said to be fighting down `man` and his music.
Gone are the days when youths sat and reasoned in some form of rational behaviour.
Today we worry about sexuality of ones opposition. Batty man fe bun.
Today we wanna be badder than the rest.
And you think PJ is not confrontational.
Like any chieftain, warlord, Don or General may be seen as sitting there quietly on the high horse, he presides over a great fight over benefits and resources that are not so ever-free flowing.
So, don`t think that because he wheezes and faints that he is a nice guy incapable of lifting his little finger. The goons who payload know what to do when anyone of those fingers are raised.
Sometimes it is at the cost of a life. Sometimes it is not.
But one can see the amazing ability power-struct Prime ministers and Presidents have when they decide which either way to build or cut-down.
All the niceness and sweetness will be revealed now that their greatest fear, elections is looming large on the horizon.
Once elected, traditionally things seem bright and bountiful. Then suddenly along the way we start to slip and slide into ineptitude and irresponsibility.
Then as usual, we vote out the ruling party instead of voting it in.
Tired is what they all are, Tired.

[Ackee]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Quodlibet:
I am not sure who all the members are on the committee that review recommendations for honours...well wait I believe Merrick Needham...that guy who usually commentates on state functions, eg Queen's visit, and now consults on matters of ettiquet(sp?)and other forms of decorum. The rest I'm not sure of.

Regarding your "ace in the hole" analysis, I agree with the Manley trump card, but the "right to strike" legislation may be reckless if they wanted to attract any investor. Wait a minute,aren't trade unions already equipped with the "right to strike"?

Pilot:
"Jamaicans love this thing yu see, of chattin bout da politician deh thief money and dah one deh a him cause dem fi go shoot up di lane

I am sure the thought process behind the state of emergency was more than that Q..."

There is some truth that "politician deh (do)thief money and dah one deh a him cause dem fi go shoot up di lane" They have been cupable in such acts before, but of course the evidence for most are not able to be carried to court...well not in Jamaica.

Pilot:"People must lend without an expectation of return that is the socialist principle.."

[Q3210]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Eddie said that it takes ca$h to feed a nation. Pilot disagrees. It takes a spirit of togetherness.

Last time I went food shopping and mentioned to the manager after I told the cashier that all I had was Heart and a spirit of togetherness to exchange for the couple scandal bags of groceries, he called his security supe and took back his stuff and reccomended that i go see Doctor Irons for mental observation.

I must be so aloof. If it cost only my heart and a spirit of togetherness to feed the nation, this Jamaica nation would never have hungry people, trust me.

The difference between dreamers and practical minds is that dreamers think that it is just the thought that conquors hunger spasms.

People who actually budget and think of what they`re going to have for dinner and cook it and have the other hungry people in the neighbourhood to share it with actually have to dig deep in their if not, some others pockets to find CA$H, credit or political spoil/ hand-out to exchange for that itsy bitsy meal, even if it is one pea and one grain of rice.

Michael and Pilot definitely demonstrated in their sojourn on Earth that we could dream our way and wish it on people.

Pupa Eddie and some morons like myself end up having to pay for it.

Hey Ackee, lend me a Joshie ($1000) mek I go buy some food nuh.

If you dont have it, come mek we go up to PNP HQ and get some food from the feeding tree up deh.....seh what?.....Lawx Ackee man where me mus get pawty cawd fram?
Yu mean seh dem wouldn`t use some Heart and togetherness and give us a meal?

[barosa]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Originally posted by Q3210:

If Michael didn`t do what he did, I would not have known the results as it is manifested today.
He alone is not the prime cause to our present predicament, but he was the leader who instilled a thought into the minds of many Jamaicans, where what was mine was yours.
A warped sense of egalatiraianism that comes with some socialist rhetoric.
He and Jamaica`s middle class were from one end of the scale to an extreme end of the other.

When he ushered many of them out on the 5 flights to Miami rhetoric, some of them bought it and flew leaving their birthright behind.

*********************************************

Q, ....I couldn't agree with you more and your statement above expresses it as acurately as it needs to be. I met Michael once in my capacity as a union rep. I was not a union representative because I sought to be, but circumstances pushed me there. I must admit that I was impressed by him, and admired and respected his bargaining skills which I had the opportunity to have witnessed first hand. To put it bluntly that exposure to him made me a "MANLEYITE" to coin a word.

I was never one who believed in hero worshiping of any kind, because it causes one to lose perspective of the big picture, especially when it is fuelled by a combination of emotional and political circumstances, as was the case when he became our national leader. ....His father's brand of socialism was the benign type that was akin to the type espoused by the British Labour Party, which many Jamaicans including myself was very comfortable with.

Why were we comfortable with it? ...I'll answer by saying this: ...because it was a mixed economy type of Socialism without extremes. We Jamaicans are basically a very conservative people. Its in our makeup; take a look at our work ethic! the snowball ball man on the corner, the women on the sidewalks, the small vendors and shopkeepers all trying to make a living on their own, without envy of those who were doing better and were well off. In their hopes and dreams, they struggle to send their children to schools, so that they would accomplish those dreams that they themselves could not achieve. They did not want anything that they were not entitled to and preferred to work for it. Sharing what the rich had was the farthest thing from ther minds.

I am sure that there are many of you who remembered what took place before the end of the '80's, when Jamaicans were fleeing their country because of the climate of fear brought on by the almost sudden imposition of a "radical form of socialism". It was butressed by a new kind of class warfare ushered in by the messages that We all haffi share, and the days of the fast buck operators are over. It was irresponsible and spawned a period when the dispossessed felt hard done in by the rich, who many of them were encouraged to take one of those five flights. In one year over us$300 million were taken out of Jamaica!! I had relatives who feared for their lives, as the crime rate was increasing and scrambled to get out of Jamaica before it was too late.

Many lives were disrupted, many lost their homes, and others not so sophisticated, lost value in the currency due to devaluation and the imposition of foreign exchange controls. Sure Michael meant well, no doubt he had a good heart, but you dont destroy the wealth of your country by scaring its inhabitants, especially those with money to the extent that they seek to flee. We are still feelin the effect of those "war years" which will take us a long time to overcome. His brand of socialism was not well thought out. Michael's legacy will be one that will be debated for a long time to come. It is so sad, because I LIKE the man. He was charismatic.

[pugdog]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

So, I am confused. What are the laws and regulations on ganja in Jamaica?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Ganja is illegal. Be confused no more.

[Q3210]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Barosa, I too was smitten by Michael`s good words.
My parents were all for Norman Manley the statesman, barrister and man of substance.
Along came 1972, it was my final year in high school. It was also the advent of a new begining and a new awareness in Jamaican politics.
Michael Manley was elected PM proclaiming "Better Must Come".
It felt like all of us Jamaicans were all part of a unit with something in it for us all.
Suddenly, all of us were at the same level. If not so, there was great expectations that we would all be beneficiaries to the revenues of our natural resources in a open and transparent way.

Royalties on Bauxite/ alumina were imposed on the mining companies. Yes, Jamaicans would really benefit.

Ever since the National Stadium was openned in the early 60`s, people paid their way in through the turnstiles. Michael openned the gates and certain events we were allowed in, Free.
Yes, this was it now. We were going to reap rewards. Free!
Those youthful days, it did not dawn on me that when you picked fruit off a tree, you had to always put back something, be it water and/or fertilizer/ mulch.

What seemed to have happened was that Michael was making all of us youth happy. National youth Service, Brigadista sojourns to Cuba to learn construction work, JAMAL, Crash Programmes, Land Lease, Free Education, Free addmittance to the Stadium, PNP Youth Groups and the elite Vanguard in each consituency were some of the things that were for us to join and benefit.

It seemed all a dream come true. There was a lot of exuberant expectations, that at the end somehow we youth would all be better off.

Well, one thing for sure, there was a Heart and a Spirit of Togetherness, a grand motivation. Where it was sought to create a Ministry of Mobilization led by DK Duncan to inform and pave the way to a new Equality of opportunity, Egalitarianism.

But something did not look too right along the way as the months passed and turned into years.
Basic food and commodities were getting scarce.
We couldn`t get flour and rice. Items were "married" to one another. If you wanted cornmeal, you had to buy a package. Cornmeal was married to something else and you had to pay for something else, sometimes three other items, just to get what you wanted.

Austerity dawned on us. All the grand schemes dwindled into Pink Elephants. Ideally, we were led to believe great things almost a Utopia.
Practically, we were digging our graves, we were dreaming that there was abundance of wealth at the end of the rainbow. What was critically lacking, was we had no idea how to get there. We had no tangible means of putting food on the table. We were people who loved to go to the cinema and watch Clint Eastwood and Franco Nero from Dollar and Django series fame. We watched on the screen how it paid to be BAD.
Bad man time was on us.
Michael went to the United Nations, talked about north/south dialogue. Effectively, he joined the socialist bandwagon, demonizing the rich nations as being reactionaries. Jamaica and others like Cuba were Third World progressive forces who suckled the bosom of the Big Bear, the USSR.

As time evolved, we got mixed up into believing that we had not to work for what we wanted.
Wicked imperialist exploiters such as the business sector and professional people were villified as people who "Fought down small men"
The 21 families mostly of brown pigmentation were exploiters of poor black people.
These "haves" we were led to believe owed us a living.
If you had 2 of one thing, someone without was suddenly led to believe that he too was entitled to one of it.
If you wanted to travel the (FIU) Financial Intelligence Unit was legislated to pry into your resources to prevent you from taking over the subscribed amount of foreign exchange.

Freedom had a stake in certain things, whilst Grand galas and political propaganda campaigns were open free to the public. Bus loads of Party Card holders from the Youth Groups to the senior party stalwarts and members of the National Executive Council (NEC) were all beneficiaries to hand-outs such as housing and contractual arrangements where corruption raised its ugly head. Public Tender was just a sham.
Like it is today, you know who got all the contracts. The men with "Belly" was the Don.
Mawga slim waisted men were usually opposition supporters.
Contractual arrangements included Crash Programmes where gangs of men and women with shovels and rakes were supposed to keep the streets and open undeveloped lots clean and bushed. Most of the time, these gangs were seen sitting on the sidewalks or leaning on their shovels, some need not be on location. Names got on the payroll. Some fortunate had not only one name but two and three on the payroll. All they did was wait for Friday to come, to "collect".

Jamaica was led into a false sense of welfare and that the Govt. was a friend of the "small man".
Michael was a nice guy indeed. He was a modern day legal Robin Hood, and a "romantic".
After all, he married Beverly Anderson, a black progressive woman.

Jamaica was feeding the multitudes by whatever means not knowing where and how it all got there, where it was derived. Soon the national reserve was to be depleted. The (IMF) International Monetary Fund was next called in and we now had to borrow money.
The IMF had strict terms. Michael told us that the IMF was part of the wicked rich imperialist nations and that 'they' made life for us, Jamaicans difficult. We were led to believe that management was nothing. All you had to do was open the darn bag and take what was in it.

All this time, responsible adults, older than my generation of exuberant youths, the tax payers had to be tabbing the bills, whilst Michael continued with his charismatic innuendos.
One of which was "Mi have dem unda mannas, heavy heavy mannas."

Responsible adults who saw this boy playing with toys leading a nation. Mike was this boy.
Some took up the invitation and paid their way on the infamous exodus to Miami, New York and Toronto, the 5 flights a day that left Jamaica.

Barosa explains it well, above.

Mike had a whole lot of spirit and we were led to believe that "Duppy" could conquor as was said in Bob Marley`s 'Duppy Conquoror'. Michael Manley had no inquisition as to what economics was about.
No beggar, no small man, no big man, no thief can be in his right mind and put food on the table without paying for it, CA$H.

[britisha]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Q3210; excellent expose, this your last post. I think you hit the nail right on the head.

Key words in your last post "in his right mind", ie the reality is....unless of course the "thief" was skilled at raiding Massa Joe's yam hill, [and plenti a dat did go aan tuh] then him wouldn haffi worri bout cash....henniways your point is well taken.

Looking back, I wonder if many of these players were "in their right minds" during the 70's or were they drunk with power.

[Q3210]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

The socialists used the facade of being for the people, setting up "big" things working on the egoes of the poor and uneducated; With this camaflauge they flouted power, like Eric Honeker of East Germany their mouths were very far distances from their actions, creaming off the top wealth and leaving the scraps as did Papa and Baby Doc for the unintelligent.
Those bits and pieces thrown out through the windows of Volvo limousines in Port Au Prince were just as simular to the rhetoric thrown out to us, when they said that they loved poor black sorry ghetto souls.
They perfectly knew what they were doing. Powewr drunk is more what fits the regimes that have governed Jamaica. The result today is a warped illogical mentality that has reaped many of the domestic and violent crime and dishonesty that prevails from the top echelons to the grass roots of society where Ginnals and Anancy and Dons are the mentos of our sorry youth.

[quodlibet]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Originally posted by Ackee:
Quodlibet:
I am not sure who all the members are on the committee that review recommendations for honours...well wait I believe Merrick Needham...that guy who usually commentates on state functions, eg Queen's visit, and now consults on matters of ettiquet(sp?)and other forms of decorum. The rest I'm not sure of.

Regarding your "ace in the hole" analysis, I agree with the Manley trump card, but the "right to strike" legislation may be reckless if they wanted to attract any investor. Wait a minute,aren't trade unions already equipped with the "right to strike"?

Actually, no. My understanding is that they did not need a right to strike before, given that both unions (BITU & NWU) had such a completely powerful duopoly over the union "market", and very, very deep influence in the government. Now that the influence is waning, and the "market share" of those two unions are dwindling, it becomes more of an issue.