Michael Manley - National Hero?

[Wardob]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

I always call it “The march towards socialism” well written Q3210 those are facts many want us to forget and many have forgotten.

[barosa]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Q3210, ...Yes! Yes!...I can still hear his voice ringing in my ears. He was a good orator and a formidable union boss; the rest we only knew too well. .....Your narrative on the events leading up to, during his tenure in office and now the aftermath is right on the money and needed to be stated.

No amount of latent hero-worshipping of a fallen "icon", by those who would gloss over and dismiss the damage that was done to Jamaica and its people, is going to let us forget that "nightmare",... a nightmare we eventually woke up from when it was much too late.

No Jamaican worth his/her salt, wishes evil and diaster of any kind, to be visited on the land we cherished as our home and birthplace. But when grevious harm has been done to her in the name of any leader, we should all expect an accountability and an acknowledgement of those transgressions, either by that leader or those associated with him. ...Instead, we in "Jamdung" would rather accept the opposite and reward them for having failed. ...The bigger the failure, the bigger the reward seems to be our way!!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

No one should be denigrated because they are mindfull of those wrongs, airing them, and letting them be known, especially to the youths who will be our future leaders. Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them in the future. Brushing those mistakes aside, burying them under the rugs, so to speak, will not help us move forward. No amount of sugar-coating and touting, will lull the rest of us into total amnesia of the facts.

Q3210, thanks to you,...a record of the facts are laid bare for all to see. Hopefully, this will help us along the road to a more reasoned and pragmatic approach to our politics in Jamaica. Above all, we Jamaicans, should begin to realise that..."THERE ARE NO FREE LUNCHES" in this life. I can remember in my high school days, one of the popular Jamaican saying was...."WHERE FREENESS IS BLISS, ITS FOLLY TO RESIST". which unfortunately a large segment of our society bought into. Its time for our leaders to wean our people from this freeness mentality...CHARITY: YES, FREENESS: NO!!

[Ackee]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Of course the argument could be made that most of what Q3210 said of Jamaica under Michael,is to be blamed on the CIA and being caught in the vortex of an East-West struggle during the Cold War.

[PILOT]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Ackee, Q, Baroness, its interesting the picture you paint, I am sure all three of you are older than I am, and to see that this is what older Jamaicans coming to....

Its like in the melee you have lost your good judgement in applying your role in regards to citizenship of a nation.

I am not going to quote anyone. luckily I stayed away from this board over 48 hours, for to read what you have written days after atleast take away that sting of a need to respond directly.

Its however disheartening to see the continued insult, and misrepresentation of a nations legacy, all because some individuals judgement is depressed and wallowed in self pity, and they take into account their mid life crisis and blame it on leaders.

Your frustration guys is wrapped up in denigration, failures, and disappointment.I am young and so I should plant the likes of optimism and vision for its definately within me, failure i believe is an opportunity to begin and begin again in an intelligent way. I will not be enslaved by the evils of the past, neither by the trappings of the accumulation of wealth.

For to many it has left them fragile and weak, vulnerable, they cannot sleep for their is no contentment.

Social graces get people far, social principles are what leaves this earth sane, peaceful, harmonious, and unified for seasons in and out.

Human beings are now focusing on individual wants, and that has forced us to divorce from our social needs.That is what you are describing Q when you describe the negatives of the Jamaican spirit.

We are now concern about what will profit me than what will enrich others.we are concern about the interest of stakeholders than the interest of the most vulnerable.

We prefer to use nature instead of enjoying nature, we want economic growth instead of Humane flourishing.We like to accumulate instead of serving.With all the talk you want to talk their is nothing noble about accumulating stuff, a community cannot sustain itself on mere economic accumulation.

So if you want to think that money will solve our problems then be my guest. The teen in the Ghetto innercity in Jamaica spends more money than the teen in rural Jamaica,they dress better, maybe eat better too interms of a westernized taste bud, but what at the end of the day who has the quality of life?

The kidd who goes to Street parties or da one who is digging yam hill, check it the one who drives a deportee, or the one who travels by bus to or on truck top to go to market to sell his goods. who is more diciplined and have an ethic for work.Who will ever wake up and say lawd mi cya find nuh food or mi cya mek tea dis mawnin.

The dissonance between peoples lives these days in terms of saying and doing one thing is enormous, the white sepulcres with decay and depravation inside is a reality I guess I will have to accept as the weat and the tears will have to grow together until harvest. Many are not prepared to sacrifice their modern yuppie dreams and that is what is torturing and screwing up society.

Fear is upon us, a void, vast emptiness, and is not socialism that has broght that, is not the idea of buying the truth and selling it not that has gotten us here.But many a man continue to sell the truth for personal gains.Not realising that we gain nothing for it but more fear, more worry, more need to satisfy flesh, gaining prestige but nothing else.

I say destroy all the bad within society, and build up the good, that is what I am about,Positivity,the old evils are going to fall down and it is going to crash and those who remain in it will die with it.

Reason and love people,thats what we need everywhere, recognise equality, avert sufferings,illtreatment,murder, so we can cooperate, apply our mutual services.

Only complicated reasoning and confused people would oppose such need for love and cooperation in exchange for oppression of people to make their own.

Your reasoning Ladies and gentlemen,may maintain existing economic orders,and so the social order of pauperism,famines,prisons,electric chair, gallows,armies,and wars will continue.

You profit from the cash to care organization of society,while those who suffer from it they are ten times as numerous and think and say quite the opposite.

Your conscience is what is on show friends, simple in your own covetousness at the supermarket in how you buy and sell, have disclosed your hypocracy.You believe in heaping up riches even when that is going to cause suffering,and murder among others.By your words you don't do what you want others to do to you by any strech of the imagination.

You believe in plundering the working people,while you live in luxury in the midst of poverty.Teaching men of weak confidence that they are not equal to you.

By delving into hypocracy you are now hyponotised, suggesting destroy the simple, the common, the calm and clearly defined, and reasonably people you have disgraced yourselves.

What I believe along with what Manley saw for some moments was the basic establishment of the greatest possible union between living things, That it is in our power as Humans to do so, socialization is something we have control over, by our actions we can change the world, but we are drunk in accumulation, economics of scarcity, and not willing to move from the socialization of things into the socialization of what is Good and in Abundance to sustain our community, micro and macro alike.

[Ackee]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

PILOT:
I am not going to argue with you about your perception of what Jamaica was like between 1972 and 1980,hopefully with time things may become a bit more clearer to you. Nor am I going to address your last post, point by point, since I doubt either of us will gain anything from doing so.

May I suggest that you do a bit of research on:
-the two girls who died at Top Hill
-the Gold Street Massarce
-the Eventide Home fire
-the Spy Robinson affair
- how Michael exploited the sentiments of Rastas, (your Joshua referecnce promted this) with his "Rod of Correction" check how he came by this "rod".
...as a primer.

Your thesis: What lead to the declaration of Jamaica's second State of Emergency in 1976.

Your research should entail both desk and speaking to people who have actually lived through these experiences. It is important for the history of Jamaica during the 1970's be looked at objective and without passion or rhetoric. As noble as some of the initiatives were then,some people lives were destroyed or killed. I would wager that outside of slavery there was never another period of life in Jamaica anymore traumatic. Michael Manley may not have been directly involved with some of the pains of the day, but as leader, his tenure is bound and wrapped up with all that took place. Were outside forces a integral part of what went wrong? Probably. Should Michael's hands be washed as Pontius Pilate's? I don't think so.

In fact it is good that this discussion is taking place, because hopefully this will force some to recheck positions firmly.

[PILOT]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

I am more concerned about the ideaology that was presented and accepted or not accepted Ackee, not necessarily the forensics of everyday during the 1970's...that is holding onto the past, I need not get involved into speculation about every incident,. what I am concerned about is the ideology that was prepared and what caused the friction of conflict which Manley addressed by becoming moderate and PJ Patterson since 1993 has continued to stayaway from as he applies democratic socialism.

For want of a better example in a cash to care free market driven capitalist to the bones society, FINSAC would not exist...one may say it has helped big man the capitalist elites, but it also help the country from collapsing and little man not being able to get his cash to buy food as is the case with Argentina.

Seaga possibly would easily have not created Finsac and allow the big man to escape with his money out of the bank closing mellee until the banks go bankrupt and small people who don't have contacts money get locked up in bank failures.

Similar to Enron that is how capitailist think and this is not helpful to anyone, especially weak and vulnerable people, democratic socialism puts heart into a government which will sooner or later collapse; but maybe that is what people need to see that we cannot order our societies without sacrifices and voluntery participation its just not possible.

The reason why social government would collapse is because is only the heart that is usually social, not the other arms,leg,head, and feet.

And so maybe thats what is needed to be said bout Micheal that he didn't present or practice a perfect brand of socialism but he was a man and not perfect, and the devils resistance did a plot out a street to make sure our hearts were not filled with the Good from his message and stewardship.

[Q3210]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Pilot, now you are seeing the light.
Mike had the Heart. He wanted for Jamaica what you want for it now.
The will is alive and kicking.
What was lacking was the Way.
Ackee just described some chapters that never need be erased from our minds, those who lived and those who might now research it.
It was as you insinuated, the arms, the legs, the hands that went about what the Heart and mind wanted, but in a catastophric way.
Mike could not and did not control his followers. Many used the socialist bandwagon for their personal means.
But, you should have known that this was all possible. Behaviour of men if not sometimes guided by the force of others tend to lose track of where they were originally seeking to go.

What we must do my brother is to look at our past and use it to mould our future. For it is by our mistakes we learn. First, we must recognize the mistakes, if not we are bound to repeat them.
Life is about corrections. By present decisions we correct past decisions. We modify our means our ways by pulling every nut and bolt and spreading every part of the engine on the table in front of us. By so doing we are better able to identify the part that is `bad`. And repalce it with what is `good`.

Man is neither ever-good nor ever-bad. Man is capable of being destructive or productive, one today and the other tomorrow. A bad man as we perceive him to be, might be the apple of a womans eye. The same with the good man. We might have known him to be an imbecile.
Then there are some who shed more good than bad and some bad than good.
What we must do is to try and create a better balance, a balance that is managable. Also one that is not too abrubt and awry.

Anyway, I tend to get carried away into semantics.

When I was young, I was part of the PNP YO. I attended Youth Group meetings. My area leader always wanted me to go with him to Vanguard meetings.

What I learnt was that no matter what the ideology, the people always wanted a practical means of putting food on the table.
Hungry people will not think beyond getting food.
More fortunate people will venture their thoughts out into academia.
People in general are like sheep, they seek and need leadership.
When one comes with pretty talk the sheep are easily impressed. When you get on in years, you`ll learn to be more sceptical. You`ll learn not to take sweet messages alone for digestion.
It is with the sweet we know the bitter and by overcoming the sourness we always will know where sweetness comes.
So please, Capt. Pilot please don`t dismiss us as mere prophets of doom, worst you insinuate we are unhappy and failures.
Maybe we are in your eyes but I never will put thorns on your head as did the Romans do to Christ, because whatever you see, I see love, harmony and everlasting life.
I will say there is wrong and never pretend to be blinded or impressed by what a man says until tried and proven.

[barosa]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

By Captain PILOT:

what I am concerned about is the ideology that was prepared and what caused the friction of conflict which Manley addressed by becoming moderate and PJ Patterson since 1993 has continued to stayaway from as he applies democratic socialism.

What IDEOLOGY!!!???....One has got to be either one thing or another, especially when it comes to matters such as SOCIALISM. Michael was either a SOCIALIST or he was not! Research, and examine our history for the truth which many like yourself, would like us all to forget because it was not pretty. It is because of events like those in the 70's and beyond that makes HISTORY very important, not to be ignored and never to be discarded.

Michael wanted to be a real Socialist but he couldn't. Firstly, a vast sector of the people of Jamaica weren't buying it; secondly, he was a leader that was being led by extremists within his own inner circle. It was seen as if the tail was wagging the dog. He was being told by friends and foes alike, that he had lost control of some of his "lieutenants" and he should rein them in. They were like loose cannons going off all over Ja. whenever, and whichever whichway!! they chose.

Real ideologues dont moderate or apologise for mistakes made. They believe in what they do and are committed come hell or high water. Anything less, is considered a charade and a farce. He was not prepared to "go down" for his beliefs, which leads one to conclude that he was "wishy washy" in his socialism attempt. Later, in a subsequent campaign, he found it expedient to backtrack and said he made mistakes. They were BRUTAL and SERIOUS mistakes that should never have happened. We can only hope that we will never see another socialism experiment with peoples' lives in Jamaica ever again.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Many on this thread find fault with Michael Manley's vision of democratic socialism and what he attempted to achieve for the common man.
As Barosa and others have pointed out, Manley was a victim of the Cold War and more specifically the machinations of the United States' in its battle against social justice in the Western Hemisphere.

With the backing of those who controlled most of the industrial and commercial wealth in Jamaica as well as the media, it was easy work for the US to undermine and overthrow the socialist Manley. The US had to kill hundreds of thousands in Central America and make a forty year war on socialist Cuba to kill off any hopes of social revolutions in those areas but Jamaica lost a mere handful during its run-in with the will of the United States. in the late 70's.

To blame Manley for the present day ills of Jamaican society is to blame the victim.

The reason Jamaica is so poor, so crime ridden, so illiterate, so lacking in adequate medical care and the other necessary social services is precisely because Manley's ideas were not followed or supported by a duped Jamaican populace.

Compare the health, education, standard of living, democratic processes, crime rates of today's Cuba which Manley looked to for many of his social reform ideas with today's Jamaica. Socialist Cuba is light years ahead of (still) capitalist Jamaica.

Michael was wise enough to know that capitalism does not work in the resource poor Third World but he lacked the media and therefore the backing of the easily misled Jamaican people in his vision quest.

Mind you, I do not blame the Jamaican people for Michael's overthrow as the US had/has the power and money to overthrow even the powerful but poor Soviet Union and to put down far larger social reform movements around the world than Manley could ever attempt given the backward political consciousness of the Jamaican masses and the overwhelming Cold War/counterrevolutionary efforts of the United States, the enforcer of capitalism.

That said, and I repeat, it would be the height of hypocrisy for the same Jamaica that so readily acceded to the will of the US and threw out Michael and his social reform ideas to now make him a national hero.

You can't spit on a man one day and call him a hero the next.

A statue of Michael would be more fitting in Havana (perhaps next to Che's) where social revolutionaries are revered and supported than in Kingston or any other part of Jamaica.

Michael may have been a truly great Jamaican but Jamaica didn't want or deserve him.

[Q3210]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Honestly, I really don`t care who wishes who to be hero.
What I wish is that we learn from the good and the bad from public figures like Mike Manley.
Johnny, we got messed up long before 1917 and even before the Bolshevik revolution.
The plantation left an idellible mark on us people.
There is almost an inexplainable situation about where we came from, how we survived with all the divisions of family from slave days. The social implications of our past has left many of us either the worst or the better for it.
If we Jamaicans saw what Mike was doing as good we would have embraced him fully.
But as Barosa, I think pointed out, he was sorry and might not have gone there if he knew better. A wishy washy outcome with all the mistakes he admitted. We Jamaicans are the results of those mistakes and benefits that came in the Mike Manley era.
As for heroics....nay.
No man is my hero unless he made my day, my week and my year.
None so far has been born.
I prefer to seek responsibility for our situation from within ourselves, not from the Great Satan or from the Big Bear.
We are perfectly capable of chasing black or white dogs out of our house and red ones too for that matter.
If any one thinks that they can come domineer their ideas to us we Jamaicans are pretty feisty or facety and will put each and anyone in their place.
Now if they come push a gun in my face then I`ll prefer not to tell you what I`d do.

[quodlibet]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

In the most sincere voice available to a politician... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Surely you remember comrades, how horrible the conditions were under Mr. Jones...

[Fledgist]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Originally posted by quodlibet:
[qb]In the most sincere voice available to a politician... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Surely you remember comrades, how horrible the conditions were under Mr. Jones...

[/qb]

They were quodlibetary...

[carl68ou1]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

What would stop Micheal's uncle from being a hero too? (then they would have the trifecta)

[Fledgist]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Originally posted by carl68ou1:
[qb]What would stop Micheal's uncle from being a hero too? (then they would have the trifecta)[/qb]

Er, which one? His only paternal uncle, Roy, died in action during World War I. I don't know anything about his Swithenbank uncles.

[Q3210]

Re: Michael Manley - National Hero?

Roy? You have gone way back. Uncle Douglas is still alive I think, Norman`s first son who held the 100yd high school dash record after breaking his father`s long standing one.
Uncle Douglas spent time in Africa as a social worker of some sorts.
Aunt Muriel Manley, Norman`s aunt or sister was a medical doctor who founded the protein deficient disease, Kwashiokor whilst too in Africa.
A family of achievers, mother Edna, Michaels mom was a fine sculptress.
Norman O.D. and Michael need no introduction.