The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

[Diplomat]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
. While Christian scholars have had to perform verbal gymnastics to come up with some unsatisfying explanation as to who the "us" are of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7, the Sumerians simply state that a divine council of gods (El-ohim or Anunnaki)came together and decided to create Adamu (Adam/man). This simply explains who "us" is. Contrary to what many Christians and Jews fear, this does NOT negate the fact that there is one true God. It only highlights the fact that this God is surrounded by other lesser divine beings with whom he councils.

I have no problem with this at all. It would not surprise me either if there is a heavenly 'government', so to speak, in the very same way we have earthly 'government'. I do believe however that even if there is such a government in the heavens, God does have the last word.

BTW, some religious scholars would argue that the 'trinity' of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is in some respects, a tri-partite government. From that POV, "Let us make man..." would still not be wrong the way most Christians understands/accepts it.

[Diplomat]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by Kimoni-Kojo:
The train of thought of the masses is, that they find comfort in allowing other establishments and orders do the thinking for them. They refuse to go beyond what they have been told and allow their minds to be limited by the thoughts of others. I cannot count the number of times I have heard the so-called "righteous" ones make the statement of, "if it's not in the Bible, then it's not true..." I find that way of thinking to be one of the foundations of brainwashing for those that are not of stronger will to research for themselves, the secrets of all things that have been diliberately kept from mankind throughout the ages. It is a well known fact (if one chose to study history in detail) that Emperor Constantine, during the 4th century, had a council of high priest edit the Bible (that later evolved into the famous KJV). His intent was to withhold information or scriptures in the Bible that he deemed too much to bear from a literary point, for the average laymen. People I ask and challenge you to research this for yourslef and you will find that many men of power throughout history have mutilated the scriptures and that so much from ancient history has been omitted to keep generation after genration in the dark about the truth...

Come test!

Any serious Bible scholar will tell you that the original texts have been misinterpreted, 'mutilated', and have been spun in any which way based on the bias(es) of the translators. IMO, anyone who accepts the writings of the ancients as 'gospel', should be equally diligent in trying to show that such writings have not been mutilated either. If one is prepared to accept such writings as being 100% accurate, why take issue with others who choose to accept the Bible as being just as accurate? Just a thought.

[Kimoni]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
. While Christian scholars have had to perform verbal gymnastics to come up with some unsatisfying explanation as to who the "us" are of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7, the Sumerians simply state that a divine council of gods (El-ohim or Anunnaki)came together and decided to create Adamu (Adam/man). This simply explains who "us" is. Contrary to what many Christians and Jews fear, this does NOT negate the fact that there is one true God. It only highlights the fact that this God is surrounded by other lesser divine beings with whom he councils.

I have no problem with this at all. It would not surprise me either if there is a heavenly 'government', so to speak, in the very same way man was given 'government' over the inferior creatures. I do believe however that even if there is such a government, God does have the last word.

BTW, some religious scholars would argue that the 'trinity' of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is in some respects, a tri-partite government. From that POV, "Let us make man..." would still not be wrong the way most Christians understands/accepts it. [/qb]

I understand that perspective. However, let's look at some "technicalitites". If the son, Jesus, was nothing more than God in the flesh, and the Holy Spirit is actually the spirit of the Lord (Jesus/God), would not that not mean he would be talking to "himself". I mean, is it not taught that God and Jesus are one in the same?

[Kimoni]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Kimoni-Kojo:
The train of thought of the masses is, that they find comfort in allowing other establishments and orders do the thinking for them. They refuse to go beyond what they have been told and allow their minds to be limited by the thoughts of others. I cannot count the number of times I have heard the so-called "righteous" ones make the statement of, "if it's not in the Bible, then it's not true..." I find that way of thinking to be one of the foundations of brainwashing for those that are not of stronger will to research for themselves, the secrets of all things that have been diliberately kept from mankind throughout the ages. It is a well known fact (if one chose to study history in detail) that Emperor Constantine, during the 4th century, had a council of high priest edit the Bible (that later evolved into the famous KJV). His intent was to withhold information or scriptures in the Bible that he deemed too much to bear from a literary point, for the average laymen. People I ask and challenge you to research this for yourslef and you will find that many men of power throughout history have mutilated the scriptures and that so much from ancient history has been omitted to keep generation after genration in the dark about the truth...

Come test!

Any serious Bible scholar will tell you that the original texts have been misinterpreted, 'mutilated', and have been spun in any which way based on the bias(es) of the translators. IMO, anyone who accepts the writings of the ancients as 'gospel', should be equally diligent in trying to show that such writings have not been mutilated either. If one is prepared to accept such writings as being 100% accurate, why take issue with others who choose to accept the Bible as being just as accurate? Just a thought. [/qb]

Why do a multitude of "Christians", verbally chastise those that choose to believe in a manner other than themselves? Even when someone attempts to shed light and/or provide deeper insight to what has possibly been omitted from scripture. However, in defense of others such as my self, I have had to endure verbal ridicule from those humble, meek, loving, caring, forgiving and understanding Christians. It's not the point of trying to prove one set of writings over the other, it's an attempt to put all the writings together, to complet the puzzle so to speak. However, as I stated before, when on attempts to mention anything that is not held in regard as the average Christian does, you get a swarm of "holy-rollers" giving you the beat down and accussing you of blasphemy. Again, it's not about saying one side is 100%, it's about taking the 50% of the two in order to get to 100%. Is there any harm in that?

[Diplomat]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by Kimoni-Kojo:
However, as I stated before, when on attempts to mention anything that is not held in regard as the average Christian does, you get a swarm of "holy-rollers" giving you the beat down and accussing you of blasphemy. Again, it's not about saying one side is 100%, it's about taking the 50% of the two in order to get to 100%. Is there any harm in that?

I hear ya! Fact is there are 'un/holy rollers' on both sides but as you know, that does not lend itself to any constructive dialogue. That explains why I choose not to be a part of any discussion where either side is beating down the other.

As a Bible scholar myself, I am not averse to any writings that help someone better understand the accounts in the Bible. There is a lot in that Book that actually requires information from additional sources to fully understand, though I do understand some religious people taking issue with that position.

[Kimoni]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Kimoni-Kojo:
However, as I stated before, when on attempts to mention anything that is not held in regard as the average Christian does, you get a swarm of "holy-rollers" giving you the beat down and accussing you of blasphemy. Again, it's not about saying one side is 100%, it's about taking the 50% of the two in order to get to 100%. Is there any harm in that?

I hear ya! Fact is there are 'un/holy rollers' on both sides but as you know, that does not lend itself to any constructive dialogue. That explains why I choose not to be a part of any discussion where either side is beating down the other.

As a Bible scholar myself, I am not averse to any writings that help someone better understand the accounts in the Bible. There is a lot in that Book that actually requires information from additional sources to fully understand, though I do understand some religious people taking issue with that position. [/qb]

Finally, an open-minded Christian.

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Must say that this has been rather civil, enlightening and interesting. I am sure disagreements will arise but still, it has been civil and respectful thus far.

That being said, I have always said that the book of Genesis (the early part and to me, the MOST important part) is nothing more than a relatively late and condensed version of the early earth upon the ascendency of the human race (homo sapiens sapiens). It is sketchy at best, sometimes confusing, abrupt in some of it reportings and still quite an interesting book. Then one eventually comes to realize that what is written in its early chapters are expanded upon in EARLIER writings (from people like the Sumerians) indicating that the early Genesis story is more or less a retelling of an old story told through Jewish storytellers complete with their biases and worldviews in hand. This is why I began this thread. To bring some of these things forward not in hopes of debunking Genesis per se but as Kimoni pointed out, to use all the pieces to try to somehow reconstruct the puzzle because God knows the book of Genesis is very vague and fragmentary at times.

[Kimoni]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb] Must say that this has been rather civil, enlightening and interesting. I am sure disagreements will arise but still, it has been civil and respectful thus far.

That being said, I have always said that the book of Genesis (the early part and to me, the MOST important part) is nothing more than a relatively late and condensed version of the early earth upon the ascendency of the human race (homo sapiens sapiens). It is sketchy at best, sometimes confusing, abrupt in some of it reportings and still quite an interesting book. Then one eventually comes to realize that what is written in its early chapters are expanded upon in EARLIER writings (from people like the Sumerians) indicating that the early Genesis story is more or less a retelling of an old story told through Jewish storytellers complete with their biases and worldviews in hand. This is why I began this thread. To bring some of these things forward not in hopes of debunking Genesis per se but as Kimoni pointed out, to use all the pieces to try to somehow reconstruct the puzzle because God knows the book of Genesis is very vague and fragmentary at times. [/qb]

Mutty.

Besides the "Let us..." verse in Genesis, the other verse that stuck out to me long ago that made me go hmmm, is Gen 4:16-17, when Cain found his wife. No one ever explained where she came from. According to basic teachings: There was God, who created Adam, then Eve, then they begat Cain and Abel... but then out of nowhere Cain "finds" a wife. This alone should raise the brow of many to realize that the story of creation in the Bible is just a generalization of how we came to be.

"Long live Syncretic thought"

[Diplomat]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by Kimoni-Kojo:
Besides the "Let us..." verse in Genesis, the other verse that stuck out to me long ago that made me go hmmm, is Gen 4:16-17, when Cain found his wife. No one ever explained where she came from. According to basic teachings: There was God, who created Adam, then Eve, then they begat Cain and Abel... but then out of nowhere Cain "finds" a wife. This alone should raise the brow of many to realize that the story of creation in the Bible is just a generalization of how we came to be.

"Long live Syncretic thought" [/QB]

You have never heard a Christian articulate the presence of other people on earth besides Adam and his family? I heard that from a Pastor years ago... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Kimoni]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Kimoni-Kojo:
Besides the "Let us..." verse in Genesis, the other verse that stuck out to me long ago that made me go hmmm, is Gen 4:16-17, when Cain found his wife. No one ever explained where she came from. According to basic teachings: There was God, who created Adam, then Eve, then they begat Cain and Abel... but then out of nowhere Cain "finds" a wife. This alone should raise the brow of many to realize that the story of creation in the Bible is just a generalization of how we came to be.

"Long live Syncretic thought" [/qb]

You have never heard a Christian articulate the presence of other people on earth besides Adam and his family? I heard that from a Pastor years ago... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/QB]

I have sat in on a sermon or two where the pastor tried to articulate on the subject, however, I believe it would have been easier for them to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

And might I add to my earlier thought. While the church and the popular adcademia (generally speaking here) frowned upon the ancients as just being idolatrous pagans and their writings disregarded as fairy tales and fanciful legends, the book of Genesis (the early parts) would have come under tremendous scrutiny because it would have stood as the sole (main) source of man's earliest beginings in relation to God/the gods. However, it is because of pre-biblical writings like those of the Sumerians that the early parts of the book of Genesis is corroborated to some degree because another source helps to confirm certain subjects such the creation and the Flood. What differs are the details.

[ohliz]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Very interesting discussion. Not sure I'm buying what is presented as the one and only truth here (any more than I buy the one and only "truth" any religion puts forth), but I am reading with interest.

having an alternate reality of history to believe in, versus the one sided story that has been presented to mankind up until this point.

There are many, many creation stories (aka "sides") out there, certainly Christianity has a well-known one but it's certainly not the oldest one.

maybe in time, with our combined diligence and willingness to keep an open mind, we can remove the mask of ignorance from the eyes of the masses.

This bugs me the same way it would bug me if an evangelical told me I'm not saved and will go to hell...something to do with the idea that "you know it all and I'm stupid but if I listen I'll learn and get up to your level". Somewhere I picked up the idea that people who know The Truth don't feel compelled to convince everyone else that they're wrong. I'm still listening but this statement has made me wary.

[Kimoni]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Originally posted by ohliz:
[qb]

maybe in time, with our combined diligence and willingness to keep an open mind, we can remove the mask of ignorance from the eyes of the masses.

This bugs me the same way it would bug me if an evangelical told me I'm not saved and will go to hell...something to do with the idea that "you know it all and I'm stupid but if I listen I'll learn and get up to your level". Somewhere I picked up the idea that people who know The Truth don't feel compelled to convince everyone else that they're wrong. I'm still listening but this statement has made me wary. [/qb]

Greetings Ohliz,

My statement was not intended to be in the manner of someone declaring to know it all and render anyone else that does not believe as I do, as stupid. Being of syncretic nature/thought, my statement is meant to knock down the barriers of those that think one-sided in the hopes that they will accept the possibility of what they already believe in can be combined with things they may not be aware of, to arrive at a better understanding of truth. Never have I nor will I declare that one side of the story is absolutely correct, that would be outside of my nature of being a syncretic. So I personally apologize to you or anyone if my statement came across in the manner that you described. Again, that was not my intent.

[accepted77]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Hello everyone, have been away for a while, its good to be back.

Just a few observations, the hebrew word 'elohim' is a title 'god' it is plural but takes a singular verb.
In Genesis 1 there is no article used its not "the elohim" its just "elohim" with a singular verb. KEY - This is before man appears.

Remember Genesis is a book of beginings for "man's dominion in time", it says little of the eternal infinity of God

In Genesis 2:4 the Lord God "YHWH Elohim appears. God declare himself to man.

How does YHWH Elohim differ from Elohim?

The same way the scriptures declare the church plural marries the bridegroom singular and become One singular.

Or when it says the ten commandments are written with the finger of God elsewhere by the angel of the Lord elsewhere it was ordained by a mediator, but a mediator is not a mediator of one but God is One.

Just to stir the pot some, the greek word for god is theos. The plural in Greek has two forms, one uses the root word theos the other is diamonion the root word for "demon".

We know the angels were present at the creation, we know that God created the angels before he created man. We also know from scripture that angels have been mistaken for men time and time again. The appear as men, but glorified with the glory of the LORD. Were they made after the simitude of men or were men made after the simlitude of these sons of God?

So when God said let "us" make men after our image do we not have the simlitude of angels?

We are also told in scripture that Jesus is the expressed image of the father.
Does not Jesus look like man?

So God created man in his image and also the angels in his image. We are part of a great majestic family of "like creation" differing only in our relationship to the source.

For there are bodies celestial and bodies temporal, ours is a temporal likeness for now.

Each ministering spirit bears the authority of God, men, angels and "dominions", "principalities and powers" have taken the title "Elohim" but there is one YHWH Elohim not many.

I will come back to the Genesis 6 story in another post, but just to say something to this extra-terestial twist on Genesis.

One of the first lies of the SATAN elohim to Eve was that she would also become like YHWH Elohim knowing good from evil.

The lie is not in the knowing but in the containing good and evil.

Every lie since have been a twist of a fragment of truth. The anakut is just an ancient twist. An ancient one but still a twist...

Hear O Isreal the YHWH Elohim is One.

[Mutty]

Re: The mysterious "us" of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7

Nice to see you around, Accepted.