An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

[servant]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

"Saying as how the practice of Yoga predates Christianity, the significance of the serpent isn't really anything"

My Bible dates back to the creation of this world.

Guess who was present ?

[rufian]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

ah! ***rubbing my hands***

Serpents? Rebel what you have to do with serpents?
Moses and his serpent was positive. no?
Not to forget that the first thing in the bible creation was the serpent.

[servant]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Massive, mi gawn a mi yaad.

(Sukunu, great minds think alike).

[Dyoll]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]My Bible dates back to the creation of this world.[/qb]

No, it doesn't!

[coffeegyal]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Wow, that was a long-a** article, Servant, but I did read through it. The author does raise some good points. It is, indeed, important for civil libertarians to operate with less prejudice when it comes to separation of church and state. It's not just the "big 3" that shouldn't receive public funds or be pushed on kids in school.

Having said that, however, the writer really stretches his definition of religion and religious activity. Let me focus on yoga, since I have a little experience with it. First off, I must restate that the way yoga is practiced in the West has little to do with buying into a religion. It's practice here is very limited--oftentimes it's just a form of exercise for its western practitioners. It's an effective stress reliever; it's effective in helping prevent bone loss in older people; it's a way for those of us who spend a lot of mental time at work to connect to the fact that we have physical bodies. Some of the teachers I've had (though none in publically funded programs) have explained what some of the sanskrit words mean, have explained some of the philosophy behind the practice. Most participants in class find the information interesting (because we know so little about Eastern thought), but I don't know of many wholesale "converts." And as for his argument that if "analogous" western religious practices were taught, they wouldn't be tolerated, as far as I've seen there are no analogous Western religious practices. Prayer (even facing Mecca, kneeling and standing) is not the same as yoga. There's also no danger in reminding oneself of a meditative state in order to deal with a surge of anger or fear...in fact, it's helpful to slow the blood pressure down and regain focus. That's probably a great tool, especially for hyperactive kids.

Moving past my experience with yoga...I think your author's argument falls short (for me, at least) because I just don't see new age as an organized religious effort. I think there are a lot of people out there searching--a lot of people looking for ways of explaining the world around us (and beyond), but there are no solid "tenets;" there's no single belief system that unifies them. The author gets around that with a "some practice this, some practice that" attitude. It doesn't fly with me. We westerners are also dabblers--we take a little thought from here, a little from there--and, I think true practitioners of Eastern religions would be quite offended at being lumped in with amateurs.

While I'd agree with him that some of the teachers in his examples did cross the line (empashizing perfection and being one with the universe and all), it's not on religous grounds that I agree. Some of those he mentions were just FLAKES, plain and simple. There are Christian flakes, and there are plenty of non-Christian flakes. Unfortunately, some of both kinds are teachers...

He does put down teaching of "interdependence with the natural world" as well. I don't find this religious; rather, it's scientific--we do all live on the same planet with the trees and animals, and what we do as humans affects our environment. No? I don't get the connection to religion. Are we supposed to continue with our "dominion" over the natural world? That attitude has caused extinction of species and a lot of environmental damage. I would argue that we've learned from scientific study that we're interdependent.

I appreciate your posting the link, and I did find some of it good food for thought (especially as relates to civil liberties), but I still don't think all people the author labels as New Age are really out to attack Christianity. I think a lot of them are misguided, but I don't see a concerted, evil plot to displace your religion.

[rebelgirl]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]"Saying as how the practice of Yoga predates Christianity, the significance of the serpent isn't really anything"

That would be a fair comment except for one thing.

'The serpent' predates Christianity.[/qb]

Of course they do, they are millions of years old [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] I meant the serpant=devil thing in Abrahamic religions. In Many earlier religions the serpant was a positive powerful force. Now please note the "many" not all comment [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Hi sukuna I'm very fond of snakes and lizard [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Heres a nice story from the lore of the natives:

The Snake with the Big Feet

------------------------------------------------

Long ago, in that far-off happy time when the world was new, and there were no white people at all, only Indians and animals, there was a snake who was different from other snakes. He had feet-big feet. And the other snakes, because he was different, hated him, and made life wretched for him. Finally, they drove him away from the country where the snakes lived, saying, "A good long way from here live other ugly creatures with feet like yours. Go and live with them!" And the poor, unhappy Snake had to go away.

For days and days, he travelled. The weather grew cold and food became hard to find. At last, exhausted, his feet cut and frostbitten, he lay down on the bank of a river to die.

The Deer, E-se-ko-to-ye, looked out of a willow thicket, and saw the Snake lying on the river bank. Pitying him, the deer took the Snake into his own lodge and gave him food and medicine for his bleeding feet.

The Deer told the Snake that there were indeed creatures with feet like his who would befriend him, but that some among these would be enemies whom it would be necessary to kill before he could reach safety.

He showed the Snake how to make a shelter for protection from the cold and taught him how to make moccasins of deerskin to protect his feet. And at dawn the Snake continued his journey.
The sun was far down the western sky, and it was bitter cold when the Snake made camp the next night. As he gathered boughs for a shelter, Kais-kap the porcupine appeared. Shivering, the Porcupine asked him, "Will you give me shelter in your lodge for the night?"
The Snake said, "It's very little that I have, but you are welcome to share it."
"I am grateful," said Kais-kap, "and perhaps I can do something for you. Those are beautiful moccasins, brother, but they do not match your skin. Take some of my quills, and make a pattern on them, for good luck." So they worked a pattern on the moccasins with the porcupine quills, and the Snake went on his way again.

As the Deer had told him, he met enemies. Three times he was challenged by hostile Indians, and three times he killed his adversary.

At last he met an Indian who greeted him in a friendly manner. The Snake had no gifts for this kindly chief, so he gave him the moccasins. And that, so the old Ones say, was how our people first learned to make moccasins of deerskin, and to ornament them with porcupine quills in patterns, like those on the back of a snake. And from that day on the Snake lived in the lodge of the chief, counting his coup of scalps with the warriors by the Council fire and, for a long time, was happy.

But the chief had a daughter who was beautiful and kind, and the Snake came to love her very much indeed. He wished that he were human, so that he might marry the maiden, and have his own lodge. He knew there was no hope of this unless the High Gods, the Above Spirits took pity on him, and would perform a miracle on his behalf.
So he fasted and prayed for many, many days. But all his fasting and praying had no result, and at last the Snake came very ill.

Now, in the tribe, there was a very highly skilled Medicine Man. Mo'ki-ya was an old man, so old that he had seen and known, and understood, everything that came within the compass of his people's lives, and many things that concerned the Spirits. Many times, his lodge was seen to sway with the Ghost Wind, and the voices of those long gone on to the Sand Hills spoke to him.

Mo'ki-ya came to where the Snake lay in the chief's lodge, and sending all the others away, asked the Snake what his trouble was.
"It is beyond even your magic," said the Snake, but he told Mo'ki-ya about his love for the maiden, and his desire to become a man so that he could marry her.

o'ki-ya sat quietly thinking for a while. Then he said, "I shall go on a journey, brother. Perhaps my magic can help, perhaps not. We shall see when I return." And he gathered his medicine bundles and disappeared.

It was a long and fearsome journey that Mo'ki-ya made. He went to the shores of a great lake. He climbed a high mountain, and he took the matter to Nato'se, the Sun himself.

And Nato'se listened, for this man stood high in the regard of the spirits, and his medicine was good. He did not ask, and never had asked, for anything for himself, and to transform the Snake into a brave of the tribe was not a difficult task for the High Gods. The third day after the arrival of Mo'ki-ya at the Sun's abode, Nato'se said to him, "Return to your own lodge Mo'ki-ya, and build a fire of small sticks. Put many handfuls of sweet-grass on the fire, and when the smoke rises thickly, lay the body of the Snake in the middle of it."

And Mo'ki-ya came back to his own land.
The fire was built in the centre of the Medicine lodge, as the Sun had directed, and when the sweetgrass smouldered among the embers, sending the smoke rolling in great billows through the tepee, Mo'ki-ya gently lifted the Snake, now very nearly dead, and placed him in the fire so that he was hidden by the smoke.

The Medicine-drum whispered softly in the dusk of the lodge: the chant of the old men grew a little louder, and then the smoke obscuring the fire parted like a curtain, and a young man stepped out.

Great were the rejoicings in the camp that night. The Snake, now a handsome young brave, was welcomed into the tribe with the ceremonies befitting the reception of one shown to be high in the favour of the spirits. The chief gladly gave him his daughter, happy to have a son law of such distinction.

Many brave sons and beautiful daughters blessed the lodge of the Snake and at last, so the Old ones say, his family became a new tribe-the Pe-sik-na-ta-pe, or Snake Indians.
---------------------------------------------

The snake has played a very positive roll in native legends. Years ago I lived with a 13 foot Burmese Python impressive, and beautiful creature. I can see how religions attributed such powers to serpents, they are certainly worthy of respect.

[Fledgist]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]Somebody run goh call 911 quick !!! I am feeling faint ![/qb]

Must be the spirit (Appleton).

[Fledgist]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]["Your source, being a conservative Christian, is hardly going to be either fair or honest with regard to 'New Age' beliefs"]

A Priori. L. Being without examination or analysis[/qb]

I read the piece. Why are you so eager to lie?

[Fledgist]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]"Saying as how the practice of Yoga predates Christianity, the significance of the serpent isn't really anything"

My Bible dates back to the creation of this world.

Guess who was present ?[/qb]

A number of photons?

Do you have proof -- drawn from a neutral and objective source -- that the Bible dates back to the 'creation of the world'?

[Dyoll]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by coffeegyal:
[qb]... I just don't see new age as an organized religious effort. I think there are a lot of people out there searching--a lot of people looking for ways of explaining the world around us (and beyond), but there are no solid "tenets;" there's no single belief system that unifies them.[/qb]

Right. There is the absence of a systematic theology that would fuse them together. It's like a 'loose' association of beliefs under one umbrella.

[jedi]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]Thanks servant well written, and informative. Good to always be aware of the enemies subtle attack strategies. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/qb]

Correction: Should have been enemy's subtle attack strategies.
Either way I see this comment got him really upset, what an uproar in here. It is all good folks, because you donot even know why you are all so upset about this comment. *** the enemy at his finest***

[rebelgirl]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by Dyoll:
[qb]

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]My Bible dates back to the creation of this world.[/qb]

No, it doesn't![/qb]

I'm with you Dyoll, in my belief it does not date back to the beginning of the world, and the written texts it was taken from are only a matter of a couple of thousand years old unless you subscribe to the idea it was plagiarized from Sumerian and Babylonian text, but I doubt many Xians would because that would indicate the bible was plagiarized and not the word of God but rather the stole words of cultures and other Gods. but that's fivers area of expertise so I can't really get into it as well as he can anyway.

Darn it my PC just erased the rest of my post [img]/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] and ctrl z no worky. Sukuna!!!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Oh well I just babbled on about snakes, yoga, the bible, and ancient Hindu texts, creationism, evolution, yadda, yadda, yadda. Can't be bothered right now to write it again. Some other time.

[britisha]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Correction: Should have been enemy's subtle attack strategies.
Either way I see this comment got him really upset, what an uproar in here. It is all good folks, because you donot even know why you are all so upset about this comment. *** the enemy at his finest***

So true, the "enemy" is really at work, conscience is a helluva thing......jack mandorah!!!

[britisha]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Although I feel grounded in my religious beliefs, I from time to time used to go to various churches and services and listen to what they have to say. Many preach peace and love and goodwill, and it all sounds well and good; but for me something is/was missing in terms of fulfilment for MY life.

Not that I had any doubts about my belief, but I felt that I should be able to compare and contrast and ascertain for me what is "truth". i love Unity School of Christianity and SOME of their teachings, but since a particular minister left, I never bothered to continue, although I still listen to his tapes.

However, as I've stated on this board before, I always find myself going back to my original roots, in other words, there's nothing out there so far that will make me change my original belief system [which is Jesus Christ the Redeemer lived, and died on Calvary for the sins of mankind.]

To each his own.

[coffeegyal]

Re: An Invasion Of Foreign Gods

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]Thanks servant well written, and informative. Good to always be aware of the enemies subtle attack strategies. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/qb]

Correction: Should have been enemy's subtle attack strategies.
Either way I see this comment got him really upset, what an uproar in here. It is all good folks, because you donot even know why you are all so upset about this comment. *** the enemy at his finest***[/qb]

I thought we were having a good discussion. Did I miss the uproar?