Portmore Boycott...

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

[ QUOTE ]
Unless dem have a boops, how dem fi afford cyar? If so, then like RichD said...what a great country JA is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently you have the selective reading bug too.... I explained above how even the unemployed may own an SUV.

Meanwhile:

[Blackstar*]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

Another news story posted on this site states that nurses in JA are paid JM$30,000 per month.

Let's look at a hypothetical nurse living in Portmore who drives to work in Kingston 5 days a week. This nurse would spend JM$600/week on tolls to commute. This amounts to JM$2400/month. The nurse also may have to go into town, say twice a week which adds up to JM$240/week or JM$960/month.

In total, the nurse could easily spend JM$3360/month or 11.2% of his or her monthly salary on tolls just driving to work 5 days a week and 2 errands a week.

Even someone making JM$60,000/month would be spending nearly 6% of their monthly salary on tolls if they have the same driving pattern as the hypothetical nurse.

How many US, UK, or Canadian residents spend 5.6% (let alone 11%) of their monthly salary on tolls?


NB. The amount spent is actually higher because the calculation is based on the assumption that a month is only 4 weeks long (which is only true of February).

[niceniss]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

[ QUOTE ]
Another news story posted on this site states that nurses in JA are paid JM$30,000 per month.

Let's look at a hypothetical nurse living in Portmore who drives to work in Kingston 5 days a week. This nurse would spend JM$600/week on tolls to commute. This amounts to JM$2400/month. The nurse also may have to go into town, say twice a week which adds up to JM$240/week or JM$960/month.

In total, the nurse could easily spend JM$3360/month or 11.2% of his or her monthly salary on tolls just driving to work 5 days a week and 2 errands a week.

Even someone making JM$60,000/month would be spending nearly 6% of their monthly salary on tolls if they have the same driving pattern as the hypothetical nurse.

How many US, UK, or Canadian residents spend 5.6% (let alone 11%) of their monthly salary on tolls?


NB. The amount spent is actually higher because the calculation is based on the assumption that a month is only 4 weeks long (which is only true of February).

[/ QUOTE ]

no man! that couldnt possibly be true! not when is ongle ONE DALLA di toll adds up to or when di nurse can afford fi drive cyar!

bway... Blackstar, di lack of compassion or capasity to think beyond dem own circumstances is just too common among people living away from Jamaica...

Pure vacuous, unsubstantiated pronouncements whey noh mek one striking sence(obviously) dem carry on wid... is a shame doah.

[Blackstar*]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

In N. America employers can give commuter benefits to offset the added expense for their employees. In France commuting expenses are either tax deductible or partially reimbursed by the employer.

Until Jamaicans receive similar benefits, can we really compare the situation of Portmore residents to ours re. paying a toll.

[niceniss]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

[ QUOTE ]
In N. America employers can give commuter benefits to offset the added expense for their employees. In France commuting expenses are either tax deductible or partially reimbursed by the employer.

Until Jamaicans receive similar benefits, can we really compare the situation of Portmore residents to ours re. paying a toll.

[/ QUOTE ]


aye. how is it so easy for you to look at the issue from those angles when others only see it's globilization- everyone else is doing it(when that's neither here nor there [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] ) -portmore fear change- it will help in the long run (when they fail to point out the so-called 'benefits').

The causeway bridge itself is less than a mile long so it cannot even be credibly compared to any of the north american ones...

[Blackstar*]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

[ QUOTE ]
bway... Blackstar, di lack of compassion or capasity to think beyond dem own circumstances is just too common among people living away from Jamaica...

Pure vacuous, unsubstantiated pronouncements whey noh mek one striking sence(obviously) dem carry on wid... is a shame doah.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been an interesting discussion nonetheless and given me an opportunity to look into turnpikes, toll roads, the reasons for them, public policy, and such.

As far as I can see, tolls are usually instituted to *decrease* traffic so governments also ensure there are alternate routes and means of transport, e.g. the toll to enter London being a case in point.

However, the GOJ seems to have done the exact opposite at every opportunity! It's to the point of even being penalized if they provide an alternative to the toll road.

Whatever the outcome, it's still the citizens of JA who will suffer the consequences and that is just not fair.

One question that comes to my mind though, is why were the protests of the residents so ineffective? Lack of media attention? Not enough economic clout? Are the residents' advocates not up to the job? Where was the opposition during all of this? asleep?

The case of the "Portmore Boycott" is an interesting look at the state of public debate in JA.

ETA Before those of us ah foreign get too complacent, look at this page and comment number 10 in particular.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

[ QUOTE ]
Another news story posted on this site states that nurses in JA are paid JM$30,000 per month.

Let's look at a hypothetical nurse living in Portmore who drives to work in Kingston 5 days a week. This nurse would spend JM$600/week on tolls to commute. This amounts to JM$2400/month. The nurse also may have to go into town, say twice a week which adds up to JM$240/week or JM$960/month.

In total, the nurse could easily spend JM$3360/month or 11.2% of his or her monthly salary on tolls just driving to work 5 days a week and 2 errands a week.

Even someone making JM$60,000/month would be spending nearly 6% of their monthly salary on tolls if they have the same driving pattern as the hypothetical nurse.

How many US, UK, or Canadian residents spend 5.6% (let alone 11%) of their monthly salary on tolls?


NB. The amount spent is actually higher because the calculation is based on the assumption that a month is only 4 weeks long (which is only true of February).

[/ QUOTE ]

Even with all that said, one get the impression that the GOJ feels that it has a right to toll its citizens simply because they think they can afford it.
To me the question is not one of to toll or not to toll based on affordability, the question is:

Should a Government be allowed, to arbitrarily take away a right of way paid for by the residents, hand it over to a foreign company to put up barriers and charge the residents to enter and leave their place of abode?

[Pepper]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

[ QUOTE ]

bway... Blackstar, di lack of compassion or capasity to think beyond dem own circumstances is just too common among people living away from Jamaica...



[/ QUOTE ]

Compassion is nice in bed, but are rarely seen in business and politics.

Blackstar, here are some other stats:

Newark, NJ Median income $26,913, daily toll into NYC, $6. Using your estimate on trips, that would be $2,184. (toll is only one way) 8%

Elizabeth, NJ, (nicer suburb of Newark) median income $35,175, same $2,184 toll. 6%

In the US, if you drive to work by yourself, you don't get any concessions from your employer. Subsidy is only for those who carpool or take public transportation.

[Blackstar*]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

[ QUOTE ]
Blackstar, here are some other stats:

Newark, NJ Median income $26,913, daily toll into NYC, $6. Using your estimate on trips, that would be $2,184. (toll is only one way) 8%

Elizabeth, NJ, (nicer suburb of Newark) median income $35,175, same $2,184 toll. 6%

In the US, if you drive to work by yourself, you don't get any concessions from your employer. Subsidy is only for those who carpool or take public transportation.

[/ QUOTE ]

So tolls and subsidies of alternate means of transport should encourage commuters to not use the toll road, right?

[Pepper]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blackstar, here are some other stats:

Newark, NJ Median income $26,913, daily toll into NYC, $6. Using your estimate on trips, that would be $2,184. (toll is only one way) 8%

Elizabeth, NJ, (nicer suburb of Newark) median income $35,175, same $2,184 toll. 6%

In the US, if you drive to work by yourself, you don't get any concessions from your employer. Subsidy is only for those who carpool or take public transportation.

[/ QUOTE ]

So tolls and subsidies of alternate means of transport should encourage commuters to not use the toll road, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

TO enter Ny from New Jersey, you must pay a toll. There are no free options. Commuters are encouraged to use public transportation to ease traffic congestion and conserve energy.

[RichD]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what im asking about is the speculation that part of the agreement is that the govt not maintain the alternante roads or develop any competing routes/transportation modes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preliminary Information

Read Preliminary Information PDF.
Scroll down to page 48.
Scroll down to the section on obligations as well.
This is the bidding prelim but all this and more was eventually incorporated into the GOJ/Bouygues Travaux contract.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this yuh taking?

[ QUOTE ]
Compensating for a revenue shortfall arising from the implementation of competing
transport projects

[/ QUOTE ]

[mangoskin]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
on the page 48, it says that disputes will be arbitrated outside ja..

[/ QUOTE ]

Sister what are you looking for?

Anyway this in itself is utter disrespect while the current GOJ is rushing to the so-called Caribbean Court of Justice, the Investors want their case to be heard at the Privy Council.

[/ QUOTE ]

relax, I was just pointing it out;
the former PM was really gung ho on the road, like I said earlier, he touted it in very glowing terms that it would open up the economy & ja would really benefit from it; so maybe this was a concession to the french company

according to the site, this road was considered all 40 years ago..

[niceniss]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bway... Blackstar, di lack of compassion or capasity to think beyond dem own circumstances is just too common among people living away from Jamaica...

Pure vacuous, unsubstantiated pronouncements whey noh mek one striking sence(obviously) dem carry on wid... is a shame doah.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been an interesting discussion nonetheless and given me an opportunity to look into turnpikes, toll roads, the reasons for them, public policy, and such.

As far as I can see, tolls are usually instituted to *decrease* traffic so governments also ensure there are alternate routes and means of transport, e.g. the toll to enter London being a case in point.

However, the GOJ seems to have done the exact opposite at every opportunity! It's to the point of even being penalized if they provide an alternative to the toll road.

Whatever the outcome, it's still the citizens of JA who will suffer the consequences and that is just not fair.

One question that comes to my mind though, is why were the protests of the residents so ineffective? Lack of media attention? Not enough economic clout? Are the residents' advocates not up to the job? Where was the opposition during all of this? asleep?

The case of the "Portmore Boycott" is an interesting look at the state of public debate in JA.

ETA Before those of us ah foreign get too complacent, look at this page and comment number 10 in particular.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just came off the phone with someone who migrated to the states (New York) from Portmore a month ago.
He told me that the reason why they didnt take the issue to the privy council was because they couldnt afford it. They tried with the local courts, but as you know, they are controlled by the GOJ. The opposition is taking the case to the courts now...

[Blackstar*]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

[ QUOTE ]
I just came off the phone with someone who migrated to the states (New York) from Portmore a month ago.
He told me that the reason why they didnt take the issue to the privy council was because they couldnt afford it. They tried with the local courts, but as you know, they are controlled by the GOJ. The opposition is taking the case to the courts now...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that info, Donnika.

[mangoskin]

Re: Portmore Boycott...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bway... Blackstar, di lack of compassion or capasity to think beyond dem own circumstances is just too common among people living away from Jamaica...

Pure vacuous, unsubstantiated pronouncements whey noh mek one striking sence(obviously) dem carry on wid... is a shame doah.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been an interesting discussion nonetheless and given me an opportunity to look into turnpikes, toll roads, the reasons for them, public policy, and such.

As far as I can see, tolls are usually instituted to *decrease* traffic so governments also ensure there are alternate routes and means of transport, e.g. the toll to enter London being a case in point.

However, the GOJ seems to have done the exact opposite at every opportunity! It's to the point of even being penalized if they provide an alternative to the toll road.

Whatever the outcome, it's still the citizens of JA who will suffer the consequences and that is just not fair.

One question that comes to my mind though, is why were the protests of the residents so ineffective? Lack of media attention? Not enough economic clout? Are the residents' advocates not up to the job? Where was the opposition during all of this? asleep?

The case of the "Portmore Boycott" is an interesting look at the state of public debate in JA.

ETA Before those of us ah foreign get too complacent, look at this page and comment number 10 in particular.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just came off the phone with someone who migrated to the states (New York) from Portmore a month ago.
He told me that the reason why they didnt take the issue to the privy council was because they couldnt afford it. They tried with the local courts, but as you know, they are controlled by the GOJ. The opposition is taking the case to the courts now...

[/ QUOTE ]
where were they when all this went down?

I believe the toll will be a hardship for many, but if they lose, maybe as a compromise, they could consider letting the residents could purchase a passcard for US$500 per year or some other figure.