Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jamaica

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

Ok, how can you say for certain what is in those files if they are classified?

And for those information in the public domain, in university or public libraries as you claim, how come no one has cited them as definitive sources in the claims made about CIA destabilization activities?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Humano,

If you, like TG, wish to believe that Jamaica under a left leaning Manley was somehow exempt from the Cold War policy of the United States and that the Jamaican people alone were the ones that got Manley voted out of power, so be it.. </div></div>

My friend please do not put words into my mouth and seek to answer them. I have warned you too many times for that to continue. You are for articles to rebut your baseless assertions; I think I have provided them.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was declassified for a while and then some criminal pettitioned for it to be almist deleted. So it was withdrawn andis due in anither few years. I don't know if Ibama would mane it happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Copies are still available though from th eorogonsl declasified ones,from some college libraries under international relations dept. </div></div>

Can you point us to those please. I remebmer one time you claimed CIA Records on Jamaica were not declassified and when they were declassified we would see the truth. I for one am still waiting.

But even if USA involvement is discovered can you explain Menlie and his gang own actions in terrorizing Jamaicans?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was declassified for a while and then some criminal pettitioned for it to be almist deleted. So it was withdrawn andis due in anither few years. I don't know if Ibama would mane it happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Copies are still available though from th eorogonsl declasified ones,from some college libraries under international relations dept. </div></div>

Can you point us to those please. I remebmer one time you claimed CIA Records on Jamaica were not declassified and when they were declassified we would see the truth. I for one am still waiting.

But even if USA involvement is discovered can you explain Menlie and his gang own actions in terrorizing Jamaicans?
</div></div>Whuich univrsity library do you jav eacces to and do you have the clearance to read them?

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was declassified for a while and then some criminal pettitioned for it to be almist deleted. So it was withdrawn andis due in anither few years. I don't know if Ibama would mane it happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Copies are still available though from th eorogonsl declasified ones,from some college libraries under international relations dept. </div></div>

Can you point us to those please. I remebmer one time you claimed CIA Records on Jamaica were not declassified and when they were declassified we would see the truth. I for one am still waiting.

But even if USA involvement is discovered can you explain Menlie and his gang own actions in terrorizing Jamaicans?
</div></div>Whuich univrsity library do you jav eacces to and do you have the clearance to read them? </div></div>

LOL!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whuich univrsity library do you jav eacces to and do you have the clearance to read them? </div></div>

LOL! </div></div>
LOL...this was expected it always ends with a reminder that <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">the unwashed </span>does not have access to great libraries of various unknown Universities. This from the same guy who talked about me moving goal posts…. he is moving the whole field.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whuich univrsity library do you jav eacces to and do you have the clearance to read them? </div></div>

LOL! </div></div>
LOL...this was expected it always ends with a reminder that <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">the unwashed </span>does not have access to great libraries of various unknown Universities. This from the same guy who talked about me moving goal posts…. he is moving the whole field. </div></div>Don't ask me for access to info thatrequire thise answers then. You can ciontinue to believe what you know and I wil continue to post what I do.
I don't make the rules. I just live in accordance to them.

[britisha]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'">LOL </span></span>

[johnnycakes]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

&quot;CASTRO'S TERRORIST CONNECTION
By Ernesto F. Betancourt&quot;



I particularly liked this one.
I Googled this fellow and his affiliations are what I expected from even just the title.

USAID, The Florida Cuban community, the international banking business community and many more affiliations that render his opinions questionable at best.

Think back on the Grenada invasion speeches given during the Reagan administration and if your memory is good you'll recall that they accused Cuba of stockpiling arms in Grenada to further &quot;subversion&quot; in the area.

Fidel at that time laughed at that idea saying something to the effect that why should the Cubans stockpile arms in OTHER countries rather than more safely in Cuba WERE they of a mind to do so.

In fact, Cuban thought on revolution is and always has been that you cannot foment a revolution where a country is not ready for one and neither can you stop a revolution if a country is ready for it

At any rate, after the Grenada invasion they put on display the so-called arms that Cuba was supposed to have stockpiled outside the warehouse/armory in which they were found and the arms cache turned out to be only small arms such as any police force in the world would have except that a great many were obsolete and/or of WWI vintage, hardly the sort of arms needed to &quot;foment revolutions&quot; .

That said, I am continuing to read all of your submissions TG to find things that would back your belief that Michael Manley was brought down by his own actions.

I'll comment as I go along.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

Tuff Gong,
I went through the bulk of your postings this morning and did see that there was a great deal of violence and apparently from both PNP and JLP supporters .

From what I understand this sort of violence and the widespread scope of it was heretofore unknown in Jamaica.

The question then becomes not who or what but why.

You contend that the problems were all of Manley's doing (IMF) and all the pieces you posted were from Edward Seaga, the Gleaner, the NYT and other JLP or anti-communist/anti-left spokespeople as might be expected.

Many of the pieces were replete with anti-communist/anti-Cuban rhetoric and there were no postings that were based on things like what ex-CIA people had to say except to denigrate people like ex-CIA Phillip Agee whose exposes are universally accepted as true.

There was one piece in which Manley admitted that his close friendship with Cuba and the Socialist International and his anti-imperial/ anti-U.S. talk had cost him dearly but those and one or two sentences elsewhere are the only references that hint at U.S. destabilization.


In short, talking about Michael Manley's political demise and subsequent resurrection as a run-of-the-mill Jamaican politician in the 80's without discussing U.S. involvement, the whole Cold War scenario is ignoring the elephant in the room.
To me yours seems an extremely parochial and microcosmic historical perspective just as if Jamaica were on another inaccessible planet and not subject to all that was going on in the world when in reality it was and is so close to the United States, Cuba and the Cold War arena.

That said, I recognize that your position is that the U.S. involvement was negligible and I will let that be.

I do not expect you to change your mind after all these years and posts.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;The PNP was involved in the bloody coup that precipitated the invasion, so Menlie was whose dog then?&quot;


TG,
Show me the slightest evidence that the above is so or have the grace to retract the statement.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">1970s Flashback - The 1980 General Election</span>
<span style="font-style: italic">published: Tuesday | August 29, 2006
Howard Campbell, Gleaner Writer </span>

Twelve members of the Workers Party of Jamaica, including Lambert

Brown, were arrested in Lucea, Hanover for possession of bombs.</div></div>


JUTC Chairman Killing Discussions [Part 2]
<span style="font-style: italic">(Including TED Ogilvie, Grenada Invasion, questions about Lambert Brown's role)</span>

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IMMRPxGVINk&amp;feature=response_watch"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IMMRPxGVINk&amp;feature=response_watch" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

[remo]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

A new member on here would be forgiven if after reading all these article (cut/paste)that michael manley was evil incarnate and Eddie Ciaga was a saint

Fact of the matter is while both men did not start political violence it expanded exponentially (sic)in 1976 with Manley as Prime Minister and Ciaga in opposition ...The facts are the elections leading up to the 76 and 80 elections were the most violent in jamaican history and only ended when Ciaga finally became Prime minister in 1980 ..Facts are food staples that were missing from shop shelves appeared as if by miracles the very next day..facts are Ciaga the great democrat that he is actually called an early election and ran unopposed

Jamaicans do not have short memories and do not or never trusted him...the JLP never won again until he was booted out of the party...these are the facts ......

mi a wait fi tuff gong ask mi fi proove these

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;CASTRO'S TERRORIST CONNECTION
By Ernesto F. Betancourt&quot;

I particularly liked this one.
I Googled this fellow and his affiliations are what I expected from even just the title.
</div></div>


Same all the links you have posted throughout the years, generally they are from folks with an axe to grind that is why I avoided opinions unless it can be corroborated.
In the case of Jamaica and Castro I know that is to be 100% true that many political killers aligned to the PNP were housed and fed in Cuba by the Cuban State.

Here is just a few Cuban references backed up by Jamaicans who unlike you was there when it happened:

Douglas Chambers 2008 Ted Ogilvie 1978 PNP assassinations?
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GMznkWp1BBI"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GMznkWp1BBI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

JUTC Chairman Killing Discussions [Part 2]
<span style="font-style: italic">(Including TED Ogilvie, Grenada Invasion and Lambert Brown's role)</span>

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IMMRPxGVINk&amp;feature=response_watch"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IMMRPxGVINk&amp;feature=response_watch" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

One-on-one with Bruce - Life in the socialist seventies
published: Monday | February 21, 2005

POLITICAL PRESSURE

Says Golding: &quot;Ted Ogilvie was the permanent secretary in the Ministry of Construction, during PNP times. Ted Ogilvie was a professional civil servant and a lot of corruption was taking place on the McGregor Gully project. He did an internal investigation to find out that cheques were just being drawn without any certification and he put a stop to it. He virtually froze the project. A lot of political pressure was brought to bear on him and he remained resolute. He ordered that the whole project be audited. He wasn't prepared to authorise one more payment until that audit was completed.

&quot;There were two well-known PNP (activists), Tony Brown and George Flash, who were involved in the project. They apparently went to the ministry and made all sorts of (declarations) about what would happen if they didn't get their payments. Ted Ogilvie remained resolute. He protected his officers because ... he said: 'Let them know you no longer have anything to do with the matter. If they have any questions, I'm the only person who can answer.'

&quot;He went home for lunch as he normally did almost every day, had lunch and was going back to his car. Got to his gate with his little five-year-old son with him. Had just kissed Andrew goodbye and as he turned around to go to the car, men pounced on him and shot him dead.

The police started investigations. Those were stymied and when public pressure was brought, they eventually established that there was a basis for charging George Flash and Tony Brown, but by that time they had been whisked off to Cuba.

STAYED IN CUBA

And there is evidence that they were assisted in doing so through official diplomatic channels. Dudley Thompson was then the minister of foreign affairs. They stayed in Cuba for years. They remained off the island and it wasn't until the PNP came back to power in 1989 that they came back to Jamaica.

&quot;We started putting public pressure again on the fact that they were back in Jamaica and there were warrants out for their arrest. Eventually they were arrested and charged for murder. The matter came up a couple of times, just for mention, and the normal court drag-out until eventually it was discovered that the file was missing. They could find no trace of the file, no trace of the statements that were on the files. The case collapsed and they were acquitted.&quot;

[johnnycakes]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

TG,
I read your post and watched the video .
I did not see or hear anything to support your claim of PNP support for the Coard coup in Grenada which precipitated the U.S. invasion.

Would you mind narrowing down what you posted to the evidence pointing to PNP complicity in the Coard coup and just post that with the source for it?

Thank you so much..

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Michael Manley was the only dirty Prime Minister of Jama

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A new member on here would be forgiven if after reading all these article (cut/paste)that michael manley was evil incarnate and Eddie Ciaga was a saint</div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">LOL</span> as usual the stupid, dishonest accusations. The whole forum is about <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">cut and paste </span>that is what we do. It was okay when other does it, but not okay when certain folks do it.
The only folks who ever accuse Eddie Blinds of been a Saint are <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">you, and the rest of the idiots </span>who constantly use ad hominems to attack Eddie Blinds and posters critical of the PNP Reign of Terror.