ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

[kia027]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kia</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Milo Man*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many white <span style="font-style: italic">(light skinned)</span> Jamaicans are indeed racist. Funny thing is, when they move to North America or Europe they often become the victims of racism. Talk about having the tables turned on you. </div></div>

isnt it sweet? </div></div>..<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">you</span> too? </div></div>

it was meant to be tongue in cheek

[diabolical_Tanya]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Milo Man*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many white <span style="font-style: italic">(light skinned)</span> Jamaicans are indeed racist. Funny thing is, when they move to North America or Europe they often become the victims of racism. Talk about having the tables turned on you. </div></div> That experience of the other end of racism,is the reason why many of them run back to Jamaica and quietly return to their racist ways after they seel and migrate.
Most of the jamaicans that rush back after the greate socialist run were lightskinned,<span style="font-weight: bold">who couldn't adjusat to the new status of minority in a racist society.</span> </div></div>

I personally know black Jamaicans who did the same. And a lot had to do moreso with the minority status, not so much the racist part. I know people who moved to the USA who were big fish in a small pond a yaad, but in the US they became small fish in a big pond.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kia</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it was meant to be tongue in cheek </div></div>ok.... that was a tongue way down in the cheeks I missed it.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Milo Man*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many white <span style="font-style: italic">(light skinned)</span> Jamaicans are indeed racist. Funny thing is, when they move to North America or Europe they often become the victims of racism. Talk about having the tables turned on you. </div></div> That experience of the other end of racism,is the reason why many of them run back to Jamaica and quietly return to their racist ways after they seel and migrate.
Most of the jamaicans that rush back after the greate socialist run were lightskinned,who couldn't adjusat to the new status of minority in a racist society. </div></div>
You keep building on the theme of racism/discrimination and the woes of Jamaicans when the leave and have return, but you provide no proof.
Have you or do you know of any discrimination in Jamaica based on race/shade or class which would fit the argument that white/light-skinned Jamaicans are racists and discriminate against their Jamaican brothers and sisters?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Milo Man*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many white <span style="font-style: italic">(light skinned)</span> Jamaicans are indeed racist. Funny thing is, when they move to North America or Europe they often become the victims of racism. Talk about having the tables turned on you. </div></div> That experience of the other end of racism,is the reason why many of them run back to Jamaica and quietly return to their racist ways after they seel and migrate.
Most of the jamaicans that rush back after the greate socialist run were lightskinned,who couldn't adjusat to the new status of minority in a racist society. </div></div>
You keep building on the theme of racism/discrimination and the woes of Jamaicans when the leave and have return, but you provide no proof.
Have you or do you know of any discrimination in Jamaica based on race/shade or class which would fit the argument that white/light-skinned Jamaicans are racists and discriminate against their Jamaican brothers and sisters?
</div></div> Any cursory glance of the Jamaican society will confirm my pount.
There are so many examples oif this that it does nit require close inspection by any critical thinker.
racism in miodern jamaican society is blatant.
Although theer is not mich racist friction on a daily basis. it is like how ther was racism in tneUS long before ther ewas tace resistance. Where couls a newly migrated illegal immigrant Chinese business man get the idea thaaZt he could violently attack a black customer in a puiblic place if business,without being thriwn in jail??
Now oif course i kniw this is not a verdict on rasism in the society. but nothing that proves racism is ever acceopted by some as .
so reaction that is expected.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Many white <span style="font-style: italic">(light skinned)</span> Jamaicans are indeed racist. Funny thing is, when they move to North America or Europe they often become the victims of racism. Talk about having the tables turned on you. </div></div> That experience of the other end of racism,is the reason why many of them run back to Jamaica and quietly return to their racist ways after they seel and migrate.
Most of the jamaicans that rush back after the greate socialist run were lightskinned,who couldn't adjusat to the new status of minority in a racist society. </div></div>
You keep building on the theme of racism/discrimination and the woes of Jamaicans when the leave and have return, but you provide no proof.
Have you or do you know of any discrimination in Jamaica based on race/shade or class which would fit the argument that white/light-skinned Jamaicans are racists and discriminate against their Jamaican brothers and sisters?
</div></div> Any cursory glance of the Jamaican society will confirm my pount.
There are so many examples oif this that it does nit require close inspection by any critical thinker.
racism in miodern jamaican society is blatant.
Although theer is not mich racist friction on a daily basis. it is like how ther was racism in tneUS long before ther ewas tace resistance. Where couls a newly migrated illegal immigrant Chinese business man get the idea thaaZt he could violently attack a black customer in a puiblic place if business,without being thriwn in jail??
Now oif course i kniw this is not a verdict on rasism in the society. but nothing that proves racism is ever acceopted by some as .
so reaction that is expected.

<span style="font-size: 11pt">ok my friend!</span>

[Tropicana]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

Tuff Gong, mi know you know this already but since you asked for it, hopefully, this is enough information:


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In the English-speaking Caribbean, black and Indian, descendents fo slaves and indetures from Africa and Asia, hold poltical power. <span style="font-weight: bold">Economic power and HIGH SOCIAL STATUS,</span> owever, still reside generally in what can be termed a PIGMENTOCRACY of <span style="font-weight: bold"> whites, neo-whites, Chinese , Jews, and Syrian-Lebanese</span>. <span style="font-weight: bold">In Jamaica</span>, for example, a celebrated <span style="font-weight: bold">21 families </span>with residency and citizenship right in North American and Europe, <span style="font-weight: bold">dominate the local sectors of manufacturing, construction, and distribution </span>that has developed since the end of World War II. </div></div>

Source:

U.S.-Caribbean Relations: Their Impact on Peoples and Culture

Edited By Ransford W. Palmer



Also read this book in its entirity for the historical framework:

Slavery and Social Death

By Orlando Patterson

Download this:

Jamaican political processes: A system in search of a paradigm
Author: Carlene J. Edie

Purchase and read these again:

Small Garden . . . Bitter Weed: Struggle and Change in Jamaica .
by George Beckford and Michael Witter . London Zed, 1982

Rex Nettleford, Identity, Race and Protest in Jamaica (New York: William Morrow,
1972)

The Sociology of Slavery: An Analysis of the Origins, Development, and Structure of Negro Slave Society in Jamaica (Studies in society) by Orlando Patterson (Hardcover - Jun 1969)

I KNOW you've read them Tuff Gong. They are a MUST for anyone who wants to understand the dynamics of race, class and economic oppression in Jamaica.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tropicana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Gong, mi know you know this already but since you asked for it, hopefully, this is enough information:


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In the English-speaking Caribbean, black and Indian, descendents fo slaves and indetures from Africa and Asia, hold poltical power. <span style="font-weight: bold">Economic power and HIGH SOCIAL STATUS,</span> owever, still reside generally in what can be termed a PIGMENTOCRACY of <span style="font-weight: bold"> whites, neo-whites, Chinese , Jews, and Syrian-Lebanese</span>. <span style="font-weight: bold">In Jamaica</span>, for example, a celebrated <span style="font-weight: bold">21 families </span>with residency and citizenship right in North American and Europe, <span style="font-weight: bold">dominate the local sectors of manufacturing, construction, and distribution </span>that has developed since the end of World War II. </div></div>

Source:

U.S.-Caribbean Relations: Their Impact on Peoples and Culture

Edited By Ransford W. Palmer



Also read this book in its entirity for the historical framework:

Slavery and Social Death

By Orlando Patterson

Download this:

Jamaican political processes: A system in search of a paradigm
Author: Carlene J. Edie

Purchase and read these again:

Small Garden . . . Bitter Weed: Struggle and Change in Jamaica .
by George Beckford and Michael Witter . London Zed, 1982

Rex Nettleford, Identity, Race and Protest in Jamaica (New York: William Morrow,
1972)

The Sociology of Slavery: An Analysis of the Origins, Development, and Structure of Negro Slave Society in Jamaica (Studies in society) by Orlando Patterson (Hardcover - Jun 1969)

I KNOW you've read them Tuff Gong. They are a MUST for anyone who wants to understand the dynamics of race, class and economic oppression in Jamaica.

</div></div>

Can you explain to me what that mess of literature is in aid of, exactly how does it answer my question to you?

[Tropicana]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

I KNOW you know that in Jamaica people who are darker complexioned experience the brunt of the economic hardship and discrimination. You've posted about the economic conditions MANY TIME!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you or do you know of any discrimination in Jamaica based on race/shade or class which would fit the argument that white/light-skinned Jamaicans are racists and discriminate against their Jamaican brothers and sisters?
</div></div>

The lighter complexioned Blacks, White, Syrians-Lebanese, and Jews enjoy the economic and social privileges. I am not sure why you asked the question because you already know all of this. So, since you asked, I provided the information to describe the historical context, the 21 NON-BLACK families who control the economy, etc. You KNOW that up until not too long ago there were certain jobs people couldn't get if they were darker than a certain complexion. There are beaches, golf clubs, tennis clubs, and hotels where Black people were not allowed in Jamaica. Again, you must have a reason for asking so I posted the information for anyone who needs it.

Here is more. It is important to know our history and yes racial discrimination has been part of our history:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It appears that the social differentiation based on colour which prevailed in 1838 must have remained fairly static for nearly a century, the tempo of slow change quickening somewhat during the 1920's, experiencing a greater quickening in the 1930s, coming in for accelerated motion in the 1940s with the river of knowledge finding itself in spate in the 1950s and 1960s.

Up to the 1920s conditions were superficially little removed from those described by Grant Allen as prevailing in the 1860s. Roughly speaking a discernible &quot;touch of the tar-brush&quot; disqualified the victim of circumstances from close social relations with the Whites. For it might lead to marriage and marriage might bring the dreaded &quot;throw-back&quot; (or reversion to colour) in the offspring. Many a dark member of an apparently white family was a cause of shame and embarrassment to the humiliation or frustration to himself.

Roughly speaking, Black and Coloured Persons &quot;knew their place&quot;, the line being drawn at free acceptance in business, with due respect paid and graciously received, and with tacit exclusion from the homes of the Whites. The relations between Joseph Gordon (the Scotsman) and his coloured son, George William Gordon remaining typical for several generations up to and after the 1860s.

Some few persons of colour had what might be called a flair for society and might be admitted; but an awkward situation arose when he aspired to marriage. A coloured doctor or lawyer (particularly in the country towns) might live down the social disability by sheer outstanding merit. <span style="font-weight: bold">By and large, persons of marked colour were not on visiting terms with the whites, nor were they readily accepted in the more exclusive clubs in Kingston or in some rather snooty country towns like Mandeville.</span>

White and coloured children mingled freely at school without any inhibitions whatever. When they grew up. however conditions solidified as above indicated:


<span style="font-weight: bold">The blacks long continued in a lower social category than persons of colour; and, with kinky (&quot;pepper-grain&quot hair, the very dark man suffered the social ostracism of the blacks. Apart from the competitive Civil Service (first put into operation in 18E5) there were little or no white-collar jobs available to the blacks. They were also excluded from the social life of the whites and persons of colour except in limited measure in the homes of the Missionaries; and they were generally excluded from social admission in the homes, hotels and clubs.</span>
For the blacks, a vicious social and economic circle prevailed. Denied economic opportunity, it was long before they enjoyed the amenities which economic resources usually bring: education, care of the person.

One is reminded of R. L. Stevenson's In &quot;A child that is not clean and neat, with lots of toys and things to eat, he is a naughty child I'm sure or else - his dear Papa is poor&quot;.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Between 1890 and 1896 in Jamaica in one of the boarding schools for secondary education not a dozen black Jamaican boys passed through the school.</span>



<span style="font-weight: bold">In the 1920s some relaxation in the exclusiveness of the clubs based on shades of colour took place by reason of two factors: one being the filip given to sports particularly tennis and later golf (cricket had long had some very moderate effect), </span>the other being the progress to adult life of old school friends o: various shades, coupled with the outstanding personal intellectual achievements of men of color (and more rarely of women). In the meantime then was a good deal of relaxation on the question of marriage between whites and near whites and other.. known or appearing to be coloured.



<span style="font-weight: bold">It was however during this period that a black lady of culture and comparative wealth with her children was denied admission to a public children's party at Myrtle Bank Hotel in Kingston. It was difficult to decide which was the more surprised, the hotel manager at the lady's naivety in seeking admission or the lady at being refused admission.</span>

</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Source:</span>

MONTHLY COMMENTS
Jamaica by Ansell Hart
Volume 5. (August 1962 – July 1964)

http://www.demercado.com/Volume%205-Final--exceptno8.htm

[Tuff Gong]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tropicana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I KNOW you know that in Jamaica people who are darker complexioned experience the brunt of the economic hardship and discrimination. You've posted about the economic conditions MANY TIME!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you or do you know of any discrimination in Jamaica based on race/shade or class which would fit the argument that white/light-skinned Jamaicans are racists and discriminate against their Jamaican brothers and sisters?
</div></div>

The lighter complexioned Blacks, White, Syrians-Lebanese, and Jews enjoy the economic and social privileges. I am not sure why you asked the question because you already know all of this. So, since you asked, I provided the information to describe the historical context, the 21 NON-BLACK families who control the economy, etc. You KNOW that up until not too long ago there were certain jobs people couldn't get if they were darker than a certain complexion. There are beaches, golf clubs, tennis clubs, and hotels where Black people were not allowed in Jamaica. Again, you must have a reason for asking so I posted the information for anyone who needs it. </div></div>

Can you provide me with any tangible examples of light/white Jamaicans being racist towards black Jamaicans?

[Tropicana]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

I just did, read what I posted just above you. From WAY back Garvey spoke out boldly about this discrimination. Get a hold of and re-read a collection of his speeches. It's one of the reasons Garvey and WEB Dubois couldn't 'gree. Garvey was lickin out 'gainst the discrimination of the light skinned Blacks against the dark skinned Blacks and this got right up WEB Dubois' nose.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tropicana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just did, read what I posted just above you. </div></div>

The same idiotic 21 Families that Menlie and Co invented to discriminate against other Jamaicans. Of course, he neglected to tell us that the same names on the 21-Familes list were also part of his Gang and still is today.

You still have not provided any evidence to show that light/white Jamaicans discriminate against black Jamaicans.

[Tropicana]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

Yes I have but if you want to ignore it, feel free. Go back and read what I typed. Are you going to tell me that Garvey was making this up?

Manley didn't invent the 21 families. It's fact and others wrote about this before Manley.

I am not going to take the time to type these out like I did the others but read for yourself:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Black Identities By Mary C. Waters</span>

Black Identities


All these people couldn't be wrong Tuff Gong plus those of us who are Jamaican have NUFF examples from our own families and communities.

<span style="font-weight: bold"> Light Skinned Privilege « Tariq Nelson</span>

Here some Jamaicans share their experiencs and I am just going to post 1:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Any black person who claims that colorism is not real in this day and age has either just by some mere stroke of luck never experienced it (isolation, etc), are the beneficiaries of it, and/or are simply prevaricating. This is not just an African American issue—this is a black issue.

In many parts of Africa and the Americas black women are using skin bleaching creams to lighten their skin—which is very dangerous to one’s health. Lighter skin women in Jamaica are called “brownin’” and in North America “red bone”. Some women you will find their faces, necks, and limbs light, but the other parts of their body are their original hue.

Darker skin children, I have seen this too many times to count, are usually teased and called all sorts of names by other blacks who might be 1-8 shades lighter than the one they are teasing. This does go both ways but more much often lighter skin is praised and darker skin is looked down on–perhaps because lighter skin is closer to “white”.

Obviously being dark skin does not turn you into a criminal and I don’t think that is what Dyson was trying to say by any means. Instead, I think he meant that there are often negative connotations linked with having dark skin and those negative connotations often result in the nightly news report that blares: “Cops are looking for a black, male suspect, about 5’9, possibly driving…etc). The image in most minds is that of dark skin black male, not a light skin black male. Dark skin people seem to be more “incriminating” and threatening than lighter skin black people—especially to most white people.

Those same negative connotations are linked to one child feeling neglected or left out because he/she is looked down on for having dark skin, not paid as much attention to for having dark skin, or looked at as the less “pretty”/”handsome” one for having dark skin.

Beyond skin color, colorism is also related to eye color. Black people with hazel, green, etc eyes—eyes other than the common brown—are often praised for having “pretty” eyes. Most of these people tend to be lighter skin and/or mixed. The good hair/bad hair issue, perms, natural hair and such are products of this. One thing is for sure, European colonization, all in all, did a number on the black psyche–(including Ethiopia, where the country was only occupied for 5 years by Italy)

</div></div>

http://tariqnelson.com/2008/07/24/light-skinned-privilege/

[Tuff Gong]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tropicana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes I have but if you want to ignore it, feel free. Go back and read what I typed. Are you going to tell me that Garvey was making this up?</div></div>

So your evidence is based on Marcus Garvey work?
What did Garvey say again?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tropicana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Manley didn't invent the 21 families. It's fact and others wrote about this before Manley.</div></div>

Show some examples?
Manley was the only one who campaigned on the basis of destroying the 21-Families.

[Tropicana]

Re: ar mzungu jamaicans racist?

No I am not going to start typing pages out of books and transcribing Garvey's speeches. He licked out against light skinned Blacks because of the discrimiantion by them that was rampant in Jamaican society and he and WEB Dubois fought bitterly about it.

Read this again and note the bolding this time and I ahve quoted other similar sources on the previous page and I am not going to type and transcribe anything else.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It appears that the social differentiation based on colour which prevailed in 1838 must have remained fairly static for nearly a century, the tempo of slow change quickening somewhat during the 1920's, experiencing a greater quickening in the 1930s, coming in for accelerated motion in the 1940s with the river of knowledge finding itself in spate in the 1950s and 1960s.

Up to the 1920s conditions were superficially little removed from those described by Grant Allen as prevailing in the 1860s. Roughly speaking a discernible &quot;touch of the tar-brush&quot; disqualified the victim of circumstances from close social relations with the Whites. For it might lead to marriage and marriage might bring the dreaded &quot;throw-back&quot; (or reversion to colour) in the offspring. Many a dark member of an apparently white family was a cause of shame and embarrassment to the humiliation or frustration to himself.

Roughly speaking, Black and Coloured Persons &quot;knew their place&quot;, the line being drawn at free acceptance in business, with due respect paid and graciously received, and with tacit exclusion from the homes of the Whites. The relations between Joseph Gordon (the Scotsman) and his coloured son, George William Gordon remaining typical for several generations up to and after the 1860s. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Some few persons of colour had what might be called a flair for society and might be admitted; but an awkward situation arose when he aspired to marriage. A coloured doctor or lawyer (particularly in the country towns) might live down the social disability by sheer outstanding merit. <span style="font-weight: bold">By and large, persons of marked colour were not on visiting terms with the whites, nor were they readily accepted in the more exclusive clubs in Kingston or in some rather snooty country towns like Mandeville.</span>

White and coloured children mingled freely at school without any inhibitions whatever. When they grew up. however conditions solidified as above indicated:


<span style="font-weight: bold">The blacks long continued in a lower social category than persons of colour; and, with kinky (&quot;pepper-grain&quot hair, the very dark man suffered the social ostracism of the blacks. Apart from the competitive Civil Service (first put into operation in 18E5) there were little or no white-collar jobs available to the blacks. They were also excluded from the social life of the whites and persons of colour except in limited measure in the homes of the Missionaries; and they were generally excluded from social admission in the homes, hotels and clubs.</span>
For the blacks, a vicious social and economic circle prevailed. Denied economic opportunity, it was long before they enjoyed the amenities which economic resources usually bring: education, care of the person.

One is reminded of R. L. Stevenson's In &quot;A child that is not clean and neat, with lots of toys and things to eat, he is a naughty child I'm sure or else - his dear Papa is poor&quot;. </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-weight: bold">Between 1890 and 1896 in Jamaica in one of the boarding schools for secondary education not a dozen black Jamaican boys passed through the school.</span>



<span style="font-weight: bold">In the 1920s some relaxation in the exclusiveness of the clubs based on shades of colour took place by reason of two factors: one being the filip given to sports particularly tennis and later golf (cricket had long had some very moderate effect), </span>the other being the progress to adult life of old school friends o: various shades, coupled with the outstanding personal intellectual achievements of men of color (and more rarely of women). In the meantime then was a good deal of relaxation on the question of marriage between whites and near whites and other.. known or appearing to be coloured.



<span style="font-weight: bold">It was however during this period that a black lady of culture and comparative wealth with her children was denied admission to a public children's party at Myrtle Bank Hotel in Kingston. It was difficult to decide which was the more surprised, the hotel manager at the lady's naivety in seeking admission or the lady at being refused admission.</span>

</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Source:</span>

MONTHLY COMMENTS
Jamaica by Ansell Hart
Volume 5. (August 1962 – July 1964)

http://www.demercado.com/Volume%205-Final--exceptno8.htm

[/quote]