zionism iss natt racism

[rudemonk]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

Unfortunately for your position Doc, the formation of Israel and it's lead up are well documented...you mention one boat from the US as proof. Which is nonsensical considering there were several boats of refugees and Jewish unwanteds coming to the area from several countries.

AGAIN, you need to brush up on your history in this matter.

The link I provided above does a decent enough job, without having to go and read several books on the subject.

[rudemonk]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

to make it easy:

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

I wonder if yiy bothe rtio read th eopage you posted herre. Since eve th estory onth epage supported mystatements. the only mentiion of a british assistance is to speculate that Churchhill may have done so.
ther is no supporting evidence that this was so. But ofcourse the usual nuff talk and no truth is in evidence. the usual gang them and snuff them out simply don't work with me. and I have been her longer than you may think and have seen this in many incarnation as well. b I am use to th eusual tag team strategy,and the posse too.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(The Balfour Declaration)...does not support the statement that it was Britain that establioshed or encouraged the establishment of the zionist state. in Palestine later ti be christined Isrea by the UN in 1948. </div></div>
The Balfour Declaration - In November 1917, before Britain had conquered Jerusalem and the area to be known as Palestine, Britain issued the Balfour Declaration. The declaration was a letter addressed to Lord Rothschild, based on a request of the Zionist organization in Great Britain. <span style="color: #FF0000">The declaration stated Britain's support for the creation of a Jewish national home in Palestine</span>.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(The Balfour Declaration)...does not support the statement that it was Britain that establioshed or encouraged the establishment of the zionist state. in Palestine later ti be christined Isrea by the UN in 1948. </div></div>
The Balfour Declaration - In November 1917, before Britain had conquered Jerusalem and the area to be known as Palestine, Britain issued the Balfour Declaration. The declaration was a letter addressed to Lord Rothschild, based on a request of the Zionist organization in Great Britain. <span style="color: #FF0000">The declaration stated Britain's support for the creation of a Jewish national home in Palestine</span>.
http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm </div></div> ASklready refuted bythe subsucuent sentence that you conveniently chose not to present. It was presented in my post before

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

The tag team at work even with exerpts taken out of context. They work asidiousle to wittle th ewill of thise who dare to oist truth. what can I say. It has been successfuly done and weas first studied as Public relations and is today use as such to counter truth with a flood of created information.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

The declaration stated Britain's support for the creation of a Jewish national home in Palestine, without violating the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities. The declaration was the result of lobbying by the small British Zionist movement, especially by Dr. Chaim Weizmann, who had emigrated from Russia to Britain, but it was motivated by British strategic considerations. Paradoxically, perhaps, a major motivation for the declaration may have been the belief, inspired by anti-Semitism, that international Jewry would come to the aid of the British if they declared themselves in favor of a Jewish homeland, and the fear that the Germans were about to issue such a declaration.

At the Paris peace conference in 1919, Zionist and Arab representatives pleaded their case, and met each other. The Zionists presented a map of the area they wanted for the Jewish national home. Remarkably, Dr. Weizmann and the Emir Feisal,reached a signed agreement regarding Arab support for a Jewish national home. Feisal also assured the American Zionist representative, Chief Justice Frankfurter, of his support for the Zionist cause (see Feisal-Frankfurter Correspondence ). However, Feisal conditioned his support on satisfaction of Arab aspirations in Syria. Instead, Syria was given to the French as a League of Nations mandate and Feisal not only withdrew his support from the Zionist project, but claimed he had never signed any such documents.

At the Paris peace conference and through the League of Nations, much of the Ottoman Empire was divided into mandated territories assigned to the victors of the war. The British and French saw the Mandates as instruments of imperial ambitions. US President Wilson insisted that the mandates must foster eventual independence. The British were anxious to keep Palestine away from the French, and decided to ask for a mandate that would implement the Jewish national home of the Balfour declaration, a project that would be supported by the Americans. The Arabs opposed the idea of a Jewish national home, considering that the areas now called Palestine were their land. The Arabs felt they were in danger of dispossession by the Zionists, and did not relish living under Jewish rule.

Arabs lobbied the American King-Crane commission, in favor of annexation of the Palestine mandate area to Syria, and later formed a national movement to combat the terms of the Mandate. At the instigation of US President Wilson, the King Crane commission had been sent to hear the views of the inhabitants. At the commission hearings, Aref Pasha Dajani expressed this opinion about the Jews, &quot;Their history and their past proves that it is impossible to live with them. In all the countries where they are at present, they are not wanted...because they always arrive to suck the blood of everybody...&quot;

By this time, Zionists had recognized the inevitability of conflict with the Palestinian and other Arabs. David Ben Gurion, who would lead the Yishuv (the Jewish community in Palestine) and go on to be the first Prime Minister of Israel, told a meeting of the governing body of the Jewish Yishuv in 1919 &quot;But not everybody sees that there is no solution to this question...We as a nation, want this country to be ours, the Arabs as a nation, want this country to be theirs.&quot;
....................................
Where is the missing part that proves that the British didn't support creating a country for the Jews?

[rudemonk]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

forward now, Doctor.

I don't know how anyone can read the history presented in the link and come to the conclusion that Britain did not assist Israel before the US became involved. You are presenting one boat load of Jews as if that is all you need to produce to support your claim, and that is simply insubstantial when compared to the actual history.

Britain, France, and Israel plotted and put into effect an invasion of Britain's former protectorate, Egypt. That is quite a bit of assistance!! One of your original assertions was that the US armed the Israelis, which could be nothing further from the truth. The lists of armaments available to all combatants and their sourcing is a matter of public domain for each of the major episodes of war, and this info has been available to researchers and students of history for decades. In the fighting which occurred after the Jews declared the state of Israel they manufactured almost half their guns out of home made materials! It is known what equipment they had at hand down to the number of tanks!

It is quite clear that the Jews did not need anyone but themselves to form their country or at least were alone even if they did need help, and they were on the path of nation building and doing so before the onset of WWI, and were at odds with each of the powers seeking to exert influence in the region throughout the turbulent years leading up to and after their independence. As you can plainly see in the history provided, it was practically a miracle they managed to survive their nation's formation as the Arab kingdoms and Egypt had them outgunned when they made their declaration.

I do not have a gang, I don't need one when logic and facts are stacked up, at a certain point it is completely irrelevant who agrees or disagrees.

It's a bit childish, instead of recognizing you are a little lacking in the history- which is no big deal- your position when opposed with facts automatically equates to you being ganged up on? Dr, please. Let's be adults and have a discussion, which is what this forum is supposed to be like- a bunch of adults having a bit of rum and talking.

It's not a kindergarten playground.

Your logic generally devolves into arguments from authority and shifting goal posts. I will hand it to you, the bit about the students who read the forum was a rich one. But Doctor, what matter is it how long you have been posting here, or how long I think you have been here. I haven't a care in the world as to how long you've been henpecking that keyboard and it's irrelevant to the discussion.

If you think that the only mention of assistance to the Jews from Britain is a mention about Churchill, you need to re-read the document in it's entirety.

Again, it is well worth the read.

[rudemonk]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The declaration stated Britain's support for the creation of a Jewish national home in Palestine, without violating the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities. The declaration was the result of lobbying by the small British Zionist movement, especially by Dr. Chaim Weizmann, who had emigrated from Russia to Britain, but it was motivated by British strategic considerations. Paradoxically, perhaps, a major motivation for the declaration may have been the belief, inspired by anti-Semitism, that international Jewry would come to the aid of the British if they declared themselves in favor of a Jewish homeland, and the fear that the Germans were about to issue such a declaration. </div></div>

I believe the Brits even went so far as to plan to use a division of jews to place in the field against the Germans, but it was ultimately shelved when considering the effect that would have on the Arabs.

[evanovitch]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

Creation of Israel, 1948

On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. U.S. President Harry S. Truman recognized the new nation on the same day.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Although</span> the United States supported the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which favored the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine, President Franklin D. Roosevelt had assured the Arabs in 1945 that the United States would not intervene without consulting both the Jews and the Arabs in that region.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The British</span>, who held a colonial mandate for Palestine until May 1948, <span style="font-weight: bold">opposed both the creation of a Jewish state and an Arab state in Palestine as well as unlimited immigration of Jewish refugees to the region</span>. <span style="font-style: italic">Great Britain wanted to preserve good relations with the Arabs to protect its vital political and economic interests in Palestine. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Soon after President Truman took office</span>, he appointed several experts to study the Palestinian issue. In the summer of 1946, Truman established a special cabinet committee under the chairmanship of Dr. Henry F. Grady, an Assistant Secretary of State, who entered into negotiations with a parallel British committee to discuss the future of Palestine. In May 1946, Truman announced his approval of a recommendation to admit 100,000 displaced persons into Palestine and in October publicly declared his support for the creation of a Jewish state. Throughout 1947, the United Nations Special Commission on Palestine examined the Palestinian question and recommended the partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state. On November 29, 1947 the United Nations adopted Resolution 181 (also known as the Partition Resolution) that would divide Great Britain's former Palestinian mandate into Jewish and Arab states in May 1948 when the British mandate was scheduled to end. Under the resolution, the area of religious significance surrounding Jerusalem would remain a corpus separatum under international control administered by the United Nations.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Although</span> the United States backed Resolution 181, the U.S. Department of State recommended the creation of a United Nations trusteeship with limits on Jewish immigration and a division of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab provinces but not states. <span style="font-style: italic">The State Department, concerned about the possibility of an increasing Soviet role in the Arab world and the potential for restriction by Arab oil producing nations of oil supplies to the United States</span>, <span style="font-weight: bold">advised against U.S. intervention on behalf of the Jews.</span> <span style="font-style: italic">Later, as the date for British departure from Palestine drew near</span>, the Department of State grew concerned about the possibility of an all-out war in Palestine as Arab states threatened to attack almost as soon as the UN passed the partition resolution.

Despite growing conflict between Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Jews and despite the Department of State's endorsement of a trusteeship, Truman ultimately decided to recognize the state Israel.

<span style="font-style: italic">US State Deptiplomacy in Action</span>

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/cwr/97177.htm

[uswe]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The tag team at work even with exerpts taken out of context. They work asidiousle to wittle th ewill of thise who dare to oist truth. what can I say. It has been successfuly done and weas first studied as Public relations and is today use as such to counter truth with a flood of created information. </div></div>

LOL, So people who disagree with your historical analysis comprises a tag team? And those who think your'e always right are your fan club? Its called debate Good Doc, stop imagining things.

[evanovitch]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

http://mj.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/3/2/217

read these Oxford Journals re Britain and Israel, 1948-1950

[evanovitch]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

Doc is basically correct with his assessment of Britain's view toward the creation of the Jewish state...&quot;refused to extend <span style="font-style: italic"> </span> de facto recognition&quot; even AFTER Israel's creation

people must memba dat Britian has a long history of anti-semitism despite D'Israeli, and like all odda countries, cloak dem prejudices unda 'foreign policy' and 'national interest'

[rudemonk]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

It really is a fascinating story full of twists and turns and intrigues.

Good cigar and rum reading.

[evanovitch]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

history is as good as the papers archived and if the US State Department and Oxford not telling di troot , well den, di troot is but an offense

but bak wen i studied British History, dat was wat was taught..dem not backing the Jews ....Leon Uris's book builds on that theme somewhat and his book is considered by those who really care, is considered a good telling of the tale

of course dat is a fiction but den non-fiction not convincing all