zionism iss natt racism

[rudemonk]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Doc is basically correct with his assessment of Britain's view toward the creation of the Jewish state...

people must memba dat Britian has a long history of anti-semitism despite D'Israeli, and like all odda countries, cloak dem prejudices unda 'foreign policy' and 'national interest' </div></div>

I'll point out he has not offered an accurate assessment of Britain's view toward the creation of a Jewish state at all. It's not something which was frozen in time but was formulated over time- for example before the US seriously supported Israel, the Brits allied themselves with Israel to INVADE Egypt. That is support. There are documents which prove Great Britain was in support of several things in the area, often in opposition of each other, and often talking and promising and making agreements with both the Arab factions and the Jewish.

[evanovitch]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

i reiterate that he is correct in wat him seh bout dat one ting

[rudemonk]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i reiterate that he is correct in wat him seh bout dat one ting </div></div>

well he has said quite a bit, if you can isolate that one thing which you say he is correct on, my hat is off to you. I find the maze of statements and counter statements and lack of legible sentences...well, what matter. he has said quite a bit and I don't doubt some of it is correct, it's where he is mistaken which we are debating. to me I identify that with this remark:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Where do you get this information? The British had absolutely no bargaining power after the war. It was the US that chartered the ship that took the Jewish refugees to Palestine and the ports were blockaded to prevent the ship from landing. It was only after people started dying on the vessel on the seas, with no other port to land that they were allowed to. And it was the US that funded armed ans supported them in their terrorist action against the British colonials.
eventually it was the US that forced Britain to give up control and withdraw from palestine.</div></div>

this simply does not reflect any history I am aware of.

thank you for the links.

[evanovitch]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

Dem policy was fluid n di documentation wich point out dem real actions have been declassified...folla the oxford link fr weh it speaks to said declassified docs

[Tuff Gong]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The tag team at work even with exerpts taken out of context. They work asidiousle to wittle th ewill of thise who dare to oist truth. </div></div>Why don't you then consistently post the truth and stick to the truth if you think the tag-team is ganging up on you?
Maybe you can form a tag-team of your own, based upon posting and reposting the truth.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dem policy was fluid n di documentation wich point out dem real actions have been declassified...folla the oxford link fr weh it speaks to said declassified docs </div></div>
The British involvement with a Jewish homeland pre-date the 1947 effort and that was the point been made, it does not matter if is can be demonstrated that Britain subsequently had cold feet. The USA had their doubts as well; it does not change the fundamental truth.

[rudemonk]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

It is saying the OJ article is only available via subscription beyond the sample page. For a measly 28 bucks!

Also, it only deals with the period of 1948-50.

Can you post the specific link to the declassified British documents which point out how the US armed the Jewish factions- the Irgun and Haganah, that went on to form the IDF and who in conjunction with the zionist founded civil government the Jews had developed since the early 30s declared Israel's Independence, or which show the British had no ability to influence the region, or as the Dr. put it, &quot;absolutely no bargaining power after the war&quot; etc.

I'd love to read it.

Because the facts and history with which I have recently become familiar are the British in what can only be called a classic example of holding a double edged sword, formed at least one Jewish brigades to fight the Nazis, promised both sides of the issue what they wanted to hear, worked with the Haganah to blunt the effects of the terror tactic adopting Irgun and it was this training especially in the suppression of the Arab/Jewish riots that laid the foundation for the IDF to form and successfully prosecute war on three fronts with the Arab powers that immediately declared war on Israel upon it's declaration of Independence, these military factions armed themselves through european contacts and home made weaponry, NOT from the US, who actually imposed an arms embargo on the Jews in Palestine, but not the Arabs.

As to the actual US role and position, the link provided below was quite illuminating, in particular the fact that the entire US UN delegation was prepared to resign due to what they felt was Truman's and the US's duplicity, the Cuban Ambassador to the UN was sat on to prevent his resignation speach, and all the citations to Truman's diary:

http://www.mideastweb.org/us_supportforstate.htm

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dem policy was fluid n di documentation wich point out dem real actions have been declassified...folla the oxford link fr weh it speaks to said declassified docs </div></div>
A man convinced against is will
is of the same opinion still.

[Derek]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Zionism is the political system of the israeli government. It has nothing to do with judaism or any part of the 'jewish' religion. Besides there are many zionist supporters in and out of isreal who are not 'jewish'.
</div></div>

Zionism existed BEFORE the creation of the Israel and its government. Zionism is a movement and yes, not all Zionists are jewish.

[Morpheous]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Zionism is the political system of the israeli government. It has nothing to do with judaism or any part of the 'jewish' religion. Besides there are many zionist supporters in and out of isreal who are not 'jewish'.
</div></div>

Zionism existed BEFORE the creation of the Israel and its government. Zionism is a movement and yes, not all Zionists are jewish. </div></div>
I never said zionism did not exist before isreal. I simply stated that it is a polical system of isreal (i.e. the israeli gov had incorporated it)

[Morpheous]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

Did not google but saw this on wiki. <span style="font-weight: bold">Interpretations may vary on the subject.</span> The quote below would support the fact that during the plight of the 'jewish refugees of eastern europe. A place had to be allocated to settle them in provided certain conditions were met. Further reading on the link however saw the withdrawl of support due to disagreements with the 'jews'

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Foreign Office,
November 2nd, 1917.

Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:
&quot;His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country&quot;.
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely
Arthur James Balfour</div></div>

Source

[Morpheous]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dahJahPawtTwo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">for real yuh have Jews who support Farrakhan and then Zionists who hate him and write all kinda crap bout him.
Zionists are always de fuss fi bawl out anti-semitism even if yuh lok pan dem fi longah den 3 seconds.
Zionists deal wid de talmud, Zionists wrote the protocols of the elders of zion (which has nothing to do with being jewish).

</div></div>
Zeen... zeen.

a nice little summary of the middle east here

[evanovitch]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

The Jewish Star

Sailor’s role in the birth of Israel
By Dr. Rafael Medoff
Issue of May 1, 2009

His neighbors don’t know it, but on the quiet, palm tree-lined streets of Port Saint Lucie, the Mets spring training headquarters on the South Florida coast, lives an unsung hero of the fight for Israeli independence.

Jeno Berkovits, 90, was one of the gutsy American veterans of World War II who, instead of taking a well-deserved rest after returning from the war against Hitler, chose to sign up for a tour of duty in another war. He is among the dwindling group of American veterans of the battle to create Israel. On the eve of Israel’s 61st birthday, he agreed to his first-ever interview about those days.

Berkovits came to the United States from Hungary with his family in 1930. They settled in Brooklyn’s Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood, and Berkovits attended the Boys &amp; Girls High School of Brooklyn. Lena Horne was a classmate; Isaac Asimov was one year behind them. “But what happened to a lot of boys in those days happened to me too,” he recalls. “My family needed me to help make ends meet, so I dropped out of school and went to work alongside my father in a factory making neckties.”

When America entered World War Two, Berkovits became a Merchant Marine. He spent the next five years on ships in various locales from the California coast to the Caribbean to Europe. The world war finally ended, but in British Mandatory Palestine a Jewish war raged. Home for less than a year when “I read in the newspaper one morning that a group called the American League for a Free Palestine was looking for sailors,” Berkovits says. “They wanted us to help bring Holocaust survivors to Palestine. How could I not go?”

The League, better known as the Bergson Group, was a political action committee that used full-page newspaper ads, rallies, and lobbying in Washington to mobilize support for creating a Jewish state. Now the League was opening a new chapter in its battle. In late 1946, it had purchased a 150-foot yacht that it named the S.S. Ben Hecht in honor of the journalist and screenwriter who was one of the Bergson Group’s leading members, and began outfitting it in Brooklyn’s Gowanus Canal.

“They interviewed me in their office in Manhattan, and soon afterward called to tell me I was accepted to join the crew,” Berkovits recalls. “Officially I was listed as a Messman, someone who serves food, but in practice almost everyone in the crew had to do all kinds of things.”

On December 26, 1946, the Ben Hecht sailed for France with a remarkably diverse crew of volunteers. <span style="font-style: italic">“We had 20 men, with 20 different reasons for joining up,” </span>Captain Robert Levitan said later. One was Walter “Heavy” Greaves, a beefy, tattooed professional sailor who survived three torpedo attacks during World War II. Shaken by a postwar visit to a Displaced Persons camp, Greaves took note when he read “that the Jews wanted a state of their own.” He thought to himself, “Why not, goddamit?,” and signed up for the S.S. Ben Hecht.

Another was Walter Cushenberry, a tall African-American in his thirties, with whom Berkovits became particularly friendly. <span style="font-weight: bold">“As a black man, he knew what it was like to be kicked around, and he didn’t like seeing the Jews get kicked around,” Berkovits said. “We had a crew member who was Irish Catholic and hated the British. We had a Jewish crewman who was religious and put on tefillin every day, and there were others, like me, who weren’t so religious <span style="font-style: italic">but just wanted to help the Jewish cause</span>.”</span>

There were also two young Norwegians, Haakom Lilliby and Erling Sorensen. “They didn’t speak much English and nobody knew quite why they were there,” Berkovits says, “but when the engines broke down, they worked 24 hours straight to get us going again.”

In Port de Buc, France, the ship took on six hundred Jewish refugees. Conditions on board were difficult, but food was never in short supply, thanks to the two thousand pounds of kosher salami donated by a Bergson Group supporter. “It seems to me that we had salami sandwiches every single meal,” according to Berkovits. “But nobody complained.”

On March 8, everything changed. “That afternoon, I happened to be stationed on deck, at the steering wheel,” Berkovits relates. “I still remember how good it felt –– how the air smelled different as we got close to Eretz Yisrael. <span style="font-weight: bold">We were less than 10 miles from the coast of Tel Aviv, when three British destroyers approached and a British patrol plane circled overhead. <span style="font-style: italic">I grabbed this flag, it had a big Jewish star on it, and hoisted it up the mast to show them that we were proud to be Jews fighting for our land</span>.”</span>


<span style="font-weight: bold">British military policemen boarding the S.S. Ben Hecht jumped aboard. They shoved Berkovits aside and quickly took control of the ship. The crew and the passengers were brought to a detention camp in Cyprus where they would end up staying for more than a year, until after Israel’s creation in May 1948.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Dealing with the American crewmen was a more delicate question. While the British government weighed what to do with them, the Americans were taken to the Acre Prison fortress, </span>where they were jailed alongside members of the Irgun Zvai Leumi and Lehi (Stern Group) underground militias. The British authorities would soon regret that. The Irgun men had been planning a break-out, and only one obstacle remained: how to take photographs of the would-be escapees in order to make false identity cards so they could get past British roadblocks. Captain Levitan who had smuggled a small camera into the prison solved that problem.

<span style="font-weight: bold">To London’s dismay, the detention of the Ben Hecht crewmen became a lightning rod for criticism from members of Congress, the American press, and the U.S. Jewish community</span>. <span style="font-style: italic">After holding the seamen for a month, the British decided they were more trouble than they were worth, and put them on a ship bound for New York.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">But even after returning home Berkovits and his colleagues continued to make trouble for the British.</span> <span style="font-style: italic">As a result of the contacts he made with the Jewish underground members in Acre, Berkovits and fellow crewman Harry Herschkowitz established an “American Friends of Lehi” organization. Operating out of a small office in Manhattan, they raised funds and published a newspaper called “Freedom” <span style="font-weight: bold">which sought to rally public support for ousting the British from Palestine.</span></span>

Today, Berkovits, one of three surviving members of the Ben Hecht crew, recalls the events of 1946-1947 with satisfaction. “I am proud of the small role that I played in what happened back then,” he says. “We did what we could, and we did the right thing.”

<span style="font-style: italic">Dr. Medoff is director of The David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies and author of blowing the Whistle on Genocide: Josiah E. Dubois, Jr. and the Struggle for a U.S. Response to the Holocaust.</span>

[evanovitch]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">The Jewish Star</span> is distinguished from its competitors by its commitment to the highest standards of accuracy, integrity and ethics in its journalistic pursuits. By offering unbiased coverage and thorough treatment of sensitive and critical issues, the paper acts as an impetus to effect positive change.

By reporting breaking news, disseminating pertinent information, publicizing communal events, and advocating for non-profit organizations and a variety of worthy causes, The Jewish Star has become an invaluable resource which has earned readers’ trust. The Jewish Star strives to fairly represent all voices in the community it covers and <span style="font-style: italic">is a forum for discussion and debate of relevant issues that affect local residents as well as those in the greater Jewish world</span>.
</div></div>

[Morpheous]

Re: zionism iss natt racism

Interesting...