A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

**Tuff Gong** · 07-14-2009, 03:24 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only fools leave their defence to others, and biggr fools put all ther security in any one source. any single force incharge and th edefacto rulers of that country. who could fire the head of the police force if they are th eonly armed force and decide otherwise? </div></div>

I must say Dr. Dudd the above and/or variations of that theme has been one of your most consistent arguments since I have come to the Board. I think <span style="font-style: italic">(I don't want to lie)</span> that I was one of the first one to say we should collapse the Army and the Police Force into one. Others had agreed or had proposed it first but your arguments have been consistent.

Over all those long years that you have held these views it seems you have failed to notice that the GOJ cannot really afford the JCF nor the JDF or worse the JCF, the JFD and the ISCF together.
The GOJ have stood by and watched the physical plant from which these men are barracked and operate deteriorate.
They have watched the JDF run up millions of J$ of credit with no ability to pay for it and no sense of where the money went. But even worse than that with the multiplicity of security agencies Jamaica and Jamaicans have not been kept safe from either external nor internal attacks and intrusions.

Guns, ammunitions, drugs and bodies continue to come into and out of Jamaica. The yearly death toll has continually placed us at or near the top of the Murder Capital of the World and now robberies and assaults are said to be increasing.

I say it is time we cut our losses get one efficient security force. Keep Up Park Camp as the Headquarters of the New Police Force, sell off the other Physical Plants, have all citizens volunteer 2 years of their time to training and worry less about someone coming to take us away in the night.

**Dr.Dudd** · 07-14-2009, 03:32 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only fools leave their defence to others, and biggr fools put all ther security in any one source. any single force incharge and th edefacto rulers of that country. who could fire the head of the police force if they are th eonly armed force and decide otherwise? </div></div>

I must say Dr. Dudd the above and/or variations of that theme has been one of your most consistent arguments since I have come to the Board. I think <span style="font-style: italic">(I don't want to lie)</span> that I was one of the first one to say we should collapse the Army and the Police Force into one. Others had agreed or had proposed it first but your arguments have been consistent.

Over all those long years that you have held these views it seems you have failed to notice that the GOJ cannot really afford the JCF nor the JDF or worse the JCF, the JFD and the ISCF together.
The GOJ have stood by and watched the physical plant from which these men are barracked and operate deteriorate.
They have watched the JDF run up millions of J$ of credit with no ability to pay for it and no sense of where the money went. But even worse than that with the multiplicity of security agencies Jamaica and Jamaicans have not been kept safe from either external nor internal attacks and intrusions.

Guns, ammunitions, drugs and bodies continue to come into and out of Jamaica. The yearly death toll has continually placed us at or near the top of the Murder Capital of the World and now robberies and assaults are said to be increasing.

I say it is time we cut our losses get one efficient security force. Keep Up Park Camp as the Headquarters of the New Police Force, sell off the other Physical Plants, have all citizens volunteer 2 years of their time to training and worry less about someone coming to take us away in the night. </div></div> In other words, if youhave a boat that is your only mode fo transport you jaev and ther are no more means to across the water,and it costyou so muchto maintain. you would get rid if it and hope that someone else wil come by and take you across the river on your daily trips to civilization?

**Tuff Gong** · 07-14-2009, 03:42 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In other words, if youhave a boat that is your only mode fo transport you jaev and ther are no more means to across the water,and it costyou so muchto maintain. you would get rid if it and hope that someone else wil come by and take you across the river on your daily trips to civilization? </div></div>

Nope you have misread I again.
If you have three leaky boats, the water is high and increasing, none will make it across efficiently. It is better to scuttle two, use resources that you will save to maintain the other and keep cross the water till all is safely on the other side.

**Dr.Dudd** · 07-14-2009, 04:21 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In other words, if youhave a boat that is your only mode fo transport you jaev and ther are no more means to across the water,and it costyou so muchto maintain. you would get rid if it and hope that someone else wil come by and take you across the river on your daily trips to civilization? </div></div>

Nope you have misread I again.
If you have three leaky boats, the water is high and increasing, none will make it across efficiently. It is better to scuttle two, use resources that you will save to maintain the other and keep cross the water till all is safely on the other side.
</div></div> No iyo smore lik ea 4 legged table that one leg is broken instead of repairing it, you would getrid of it and expect to have the same level or better level of stabillity with three legs.

X · 07-14-2009, 04:25 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

u know its interesting to remember back many years ago when mi was going thru the officer selection process to join 3JR (JDF reservist unit).
dem gave us a "strategic planning test"
this test had NOTHING to do with strategic planning in a military combatant senario, instead it had to do with evacuting civillians during a storm from a flooding rural town with limited resources (canoes, boats, motor vehicles, a road becoming impassable by the minute...)
Nada to do with combatant operation..
a dunno if the population (as evident here) have the correct notion about the purpose of the JDF and what its equipped to do..

**Tuff Gong** · 07-14-2009, 04:43 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In other words, if youhave a boat that is your only mode fo transport you jaev and ther are no more means to across the water,and it costyou so muchto maintain. you would get rid if it and hope that someone else wil come by and take you across the river on your daily trips to civilization? </div></div>

Nope you have misread I again.
If you have three leaky boats, the water is high and increasing, none will make it across efficiently. It is better to scuttle two, use resources that you will save to maintain the other and keep cross the water till all is safely on the other side.
</div></div> No iyo smore lik ea 4 legged table that one leg is broken instead of repairing it, you would getrid of it and expect to have the same level or better level of stabillity with three legs. </div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">LOL</span> my friend what is the next three examples so I can study up and be prepared for them.... let me guess:

3. Chicken and egg situation... which will crack or smoke crack first?

4. Humpty Dumpy fell off the wall.... should we then get rid off walls and have nothing to protect us from the USA invading us?

5. A tire coming off a rim should we then take all the other tires off and have nothing to protect the road from been invaded by.... you catch my drift!

**Tuff Gong** · 07-14-2009, 04:44 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xKs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">u know its interesting to remember back many years ago when mi was going thru the officer selection process to join 3JR (JDF reservist unit).
dem gave us a "strategic planning test"
this test had NOTHING to do with strategic planning in a military combatant senario, instead it had to do with evacuting civillians during a storm from a flooding rural town with limited resources (canoes, boats, motor vehicles, a road becoming impassable by the minute...)
Nada to do with combatant operation..
a dunno if the population (as evident here) have the correct notion about the purpose of the JDF and what its equipped to do.. </div></div>

LOL was the Officer administering the test named <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Colonel Dr. Dud?</span>
I would seem based on your experience the Reserves would have been better renamed <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Office of Disaster Preparedness and Evacuations</span>.

**jah_yout** · 07-14-2009, 04:48 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xKs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">u know its interesting to remember back many years ago when mi was going thru the officer selection process to join 3JR (JDF reservist unit).
dem gave us a "strategic planning test"
this test had NOTHING to do with strategic planning in a military combatant senario, instead it had to do with evacuting civillians during a storm from a flooding rural town with limited resources (canoes, boats, motor vehicles, a road becoming impassable by the minute...)
Nada to do with combatant operation..
a dunno if the population (as evident here) have the correct notion about the purpose of the JDF and what its equipped to do..
</div></div>

doesn't the national guard in america do these kinds of things as well? i would compare the jdf as more akin to the national guard as opposed to the army;
in either case i can't see how a country can be taken seriously as an independent nation with NO defense force as some are suggesting should be done...
if the jdf should be disbanded, do you have any suggestions on if it should be replaced...& if so- replaced by what;

**Tuff Gong** · 07-14-2009, 04:55 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">in either case i can't see how a country can be taken seriously as an independent nation with NO defense force as some are suggesting should be done...</div></div>

Can you name <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">the some</span> that said that?
Costa Rica?

**Dyoll_73** · 07-14-2009, 05:14 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok- say you abolish the jdf;
do you think jamaica would need any type of defense force? if so waht type? just the police?
i take it you don't forsee any need for a defense force ever arising in the future?
or should that just be a bridge they cross if/when/ever they get to it? </div></div>

Fair questions.

Yes, a nation needs a defense as part of national security apparatus; this goes with the notion of sovereignty. As such, I'm inclined to support the idea of a national reserve corp, trained as a result of mandatory service or some other incentive-based program, that can be called upon in the event - again, <span style="font-weight: bold">the remote possibility of an event</span> - that the homeland needs to be defended. Obviously, this will require some administrative body to co-ordinate activities - but a JDF wouldn't be required. The personnel making up this corp would be people serving in civilian positions in every day life - farmers, shop-keepers, accountants, engineers, lawyers, fishermen, civil servants, etc. This reserve corp would be relatively cheap compared to maintaining the JDF which, up to 2003, spent over US 31 million dollars on military expenditures. Imagine how much of that money could go to more valuable endeavors.

I will say that even with this reserve corp, it would have only basic equipment. The cost of equiping a modern fighting force to mount a respectable defense against, let's say the US, because we all know that's who we have in mind, mostly, is far beyond Jamaica's capacity for the foreseeable future. It will take billions of US dollars. Given Jamaica's pressing developmental priorities, that kind of money to spend on military expenditures when the country faces no known threats externally, is foolish. Currently, the JDF would not be able to defend Jamaica from the kind of military that is most likely to attack Jamaica. In order to get the JDF to a level with equipment comparable to its likely rivals, it takes billions. Jamaica would have to do what some tyranical, despotic regimes do: starve/impoverish their citizens while the resources goes into weaponry.

**Dyoll_73** · 07-14-2009, 05:26 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I must say Dr. Dudd the above and/or variations of that theme has been one of your most consistent arguments since I have come to the Board. I think <span style="font-style: italic">(I don't want to lie)</span> that I was one of the first one to say we should collapse the Army and the Police Force into one. Others had agreed or had proposed it first but your arguments have been consistent.</div></div>

Yes, Doc has been consistent over the years, and I first registered on this board almost 10 years ago, and first had this discussion with him some years ago. His argument has been the same - just as mine.

**Dyoll_73** · 07-14-2009, 05:35 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xKs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">u know its interesting to remember back many years ago when mi was going thru the officer selection process to join 3JR (JDF reservist unit).
dem gave us a "strategic planning test"
this test had NOTHING to do with strategic planning in a military combatant senario, instead it had to do with evacuting civillians during a storm from a flooding rural town with limited resources (canoes, boats, motor vehicles, a road becoming impassable by the minute...)
Nada to do with combatant operation..
a dunno if the population (as evident here) have the correct notion about the purpose of the JDF and what its equipped to do..</div></div>

This is one of the points I raised yesterday. With the dismantling of the JDF, some of its functions and equipment and personnel could go to the Office of Disaster Preparedness and Emergency Management (ODPEM).

**iches** · 07-14-2009, 06:32 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

Well, mi sey dat ah bad card. Bone yard inna the deal too?

**barosa** · 07-14-2009, 10:19 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I must say Dr. Dudd the above and/or variations of that theme has been one of your most consistent arguments since I have come to the Board. I think <span style="font-style: italic">(I don't want to lie)</span> that I was one of the first one to say we should collapse the Army and the Police Force into one. Others had agreed or had proposed it first but your arguments have been consistent.</div></div>

Yes, Doc has been consistent over the years, and I first registered on this board almost 10 years ago, and first had this discussion with him some years ago. His argument has been the same - just as mine. </div></div>

It appears from what I've gleaned, that Humano, Doc Dudd, Tuff Gong are solidly in favour of sounding the death knell of the JDF... Humano is in favour of the Govt's plan to re-locate it to Vernamfield until such time that the JDF as a body is dissolved... Doc Dudd and Tuffy and I'm sure, a few others join them in their wish for a dismantling and collapsing the JDF and the JCF into one body. ~ We know not what the govt will do and if they "do", we can only hope it will be for the betterment and safety of Jamaica...

The foregoing, is placed before the rest of the board as a premise for further discussions which may or may not be helpful... I think in the end, the Govt will do what they want, whether it's the right thing or not... We all remember when the Govt closed down the Jamaica Railway Corporation because they could no longer afford it. <span style="font-weight: bold">The current Govt may wish to follow Manley's example by ridding itself of UP PARK CAMP and send the once proud JDF into oblivion in order to make money..</span> ~ Who knows what the alternative will be? History will not be kind to them if they take this path... We shall see what we shall see...
__________________________

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Dwight Eisenhower

**britisha** · 07-14-2009, 10:42 PM

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sinco01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I assure you, Caymanas would be nearer. By helicopter response to get to Kingston, it would be nearer; by trucks, even nearer - get on Mandella Highway into Kingston, whether by Spanish Town Road, or Washington Boulevard. Nearer than by entering DC from Prince Georges Country, Maryland. Go on Google Earth and see for yourself</div></div>. </div></div>

this is all apples and oranges ..
to compare Kingston/Caymanas and Maryland/Washington surely does not compute ..
</div></div>

Agreed.

A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

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