A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

[britisha]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

Panjar, dem seh "coward man kip soun bone.." and I am seeing it right yahsoh.

What else is more comforting than to harbour the notion that "Jamaica can never be attacked."

What some are forgetting is that Jamaica could become a <span style="font-weight: bold">PAWN</span> in the grander scheme of things...just because of it's location; not because it has anything that anybody would want... .

See the &quot;Cold War&quot; <span style="font-weight: bold">was</span> over? ...and what happened? Another Cold War could be looming again...Vladimir Putin is and will be A force to be reckoned with; he is dead set on not only personal power but power for Mother Russia....he has a few scores to settle.

you see what happened in Georgia, last year.


Point being, when the hottahclapse, strikes Cuba it's main ally on this side of the hemisphere will not be willing to bite the hand that feeds it, and so if Putin et al should see the need to &quot;occupy more bases&quot; near to Florida, what is there to stop them, a nuclear power?

Plus, as I said, what can happen after the old man pass, and Cuba becomes up for grabs? Jamaica can indirectly be caught up in the bangarang...tandeh an kid oono self.

&quot;<span style="font-weight: bold">Better to have fought and lost, than never to have fought at all</span>...Membah dat David did &quot;slew&quot; Goliath wid di jawbone of an arss...BUT...yuh affie haff di jawbone first doah.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Apparently, you have assumed that &quot;you and only you&quot; have all the answers for what ails Jamaica. If that were true, we would all be living in <span style="font-weight: bold">perpetual bliss &quot;dung a yaawd&quot; all this time!</span> ~ </div></div>
This is a disgusting, insultive and idiotic reply and I will treat as an attack on me and deal with it appositely.
This was the same attitude you took when you dishonestly took on the Job of Moderating a forum supposedly for discussion, resulting in you been the arbitrator in many arguments that you and your friend acted as the bait.

You are nothing but a whining, dishonest disciple specimen of a human being.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah Tuffy!, thanks for your valiant effort in your many responses. As much as I disagree with some of you points, I will defend your right to make them... </div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Look idiot</span> you need not quarterback my response, offer platitudes nor lecture I. I did not claim anyone prevented me from writing, so I really do get what you are on about. Basically I don't need to get a pass or any kind of grade from semi-literate jokers such as you.
If it comes to it I will go to hell defending your right to make an [censored] of yourself.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If that were true, we would all be living in <span style="font-weight: bold">perpetual bliss &quot;dung a yaawd&quot; all this time!</span> ~ </div></div>
<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Fool-Fool</span> no one told you to run wheh from yaad, if you find perpetual bliss in mighty Canada and do not care how Jamaicans live their lives...that is freaking fine with me. I am giving an opinion about postings on a BB, just as you are, I am a freaking citizen of Jamaica, not Canada, not the USA, not nowhere else, I never run wheh from Jamaica, throw stone behind mi and caan go back like some a unno!

[Dyoll_73]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

When I asked the question: <span style="font-weight: bold">When was the last time you saw the Military of the United States (specifically the US Army and US Airforce) under the command of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on the streets of any city quelling civil unrest?</span> - it was merely rhetorical, and to make the point that this was not the duty of the US military. But of course you would miss that, just as you missed the point earlier about the distance between the nearest military installation and the capitals - Kingston and Washington, DC (of course, this was premised on Caymanas being a possible location for the relocated JDF HQ.)

In Jamaica, the JDF is called out to deal with these instances only because Jamaica has an ineffective police force incapable of doing what is is supposed to do. If it were, the military would not have been deployed. Dealing with civil unrest is the job of the police, not the JDF. The fact that you are even debating this point shows you don't understand military doctrine.

The rest of your post is disingenuous. It would help in future if you took the time to comprehend what is actually said before you rush off to pick a fight.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have to invent enemies. Those freakin Trinis are going to occupy Jamaica if we abolish the JDF! </div></div>
LOL and why would then even do such a thing it would only make the biggest buyers of their can goods more hostile, place the ownership of their Jamaican based-Trini Owned business in great jeopardy and wreck Carnival as Jamaican Slaves would not want to whine to Trini Soca no more!

[britisha]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I asked the question: <span style="font-weight: bold">When was the last time you saw the Military of the United States (specifically the US Army and US Airforce) under the command of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on the streets of any city quelling civil unrest?</span> - it was merely rhetorical, and to make the point that this was not the duty of the US military. But of course you would miss that, just as you missed the point earlier about the distance between the nearest military installation and the capitals - Kingston and Washington, DC (of course, this was premised on Caymanas being a possible location for the relocated JDF HQ.)

In Jamaica, the JDF is called out to deal with these instances only because Jamaica has an ineffective police force incapable of doing what is is supposed to do. If it were, the military would not have been deployed. Dealing with civil unrest is the job of the police, not the JDF. The fact that you are even debating this point shows you don't understand military doctrine.

The rest of your post is disingenuous. It would help in future if you took the time to comprehend what is actually said before you rush off to pick a fight. </div></div>

**chukkle**


Why would I pick a fight? With who?

<span style="font-weight: bold">The point is, you made no point</span>...sorrie if I burst your bubble.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">~ `You would have been an invaluable asset to whatever Govt that came into power... Have you ever thought of offering your services to our beloved country?.. </div></div>

.... and fool-fool get this I was a cop for five years, I gave two years of youth service and volunteered my time in an old folks home for a year, combing old peple hair and comforting the rejects that GOJ of Jamaica by its foolish polices created and then dump in the streets.

Since I have been here I have written to the GOJ, to the media and yes offered my advice liek a good Jamaican citizen should even helping to organize at least one successful charity effort, just to prove that charity does not work, only deep changes that Governments are empowered to do.

While all that was going on I bet your idiotic a*zz was sitting in Canada the lap of luxury sitting in perpetual bliss.
I guess your claim to fame is flexing your on a Bulletin Board as Moderator...well I am sorry I can't top that.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In Jamaica, the JDF is called out to deal with these instances only because Jamaica has an ineffective police force incapable of doing what is is supposed to do. If it were, the military would not have been deployed.</div></div>

What I like about Jamaicans is our genetic predisposition to <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">cognitive dissonance and heavy dose of hypocrisy.</span>
The same members of this board that will post various stories on violent crimes committed in Jamaica and seemingly is never solved or even investigated properly will pretend that our Security Forces can at least secure Jamaicans and is more than capable of repelling any of the phantom-invading-forces surrounding and threatening us.

The Soldiers have been on the streets since the 80s. Sometimes illegally by themselves but mostly in support of the ineffective JCF, yet crime and citizen on citizen violence have risen dramatically over the years.
Concurrent with this, is the worsening economy, poor Justice System and the deteriorating facilities that agents of the State live and work in.
Even more pertinent to this debate is the fact that time and time again it has been reported that Jamaica has one of the lowest police to citizen ratios in the Caribbean.

With all of the above one would think that a reasonable person would conclude that it would be best to maximize the potential by cutting cost and making what Jamaica can afford more efficient. But we are Jamaicans, as individual we are able to hold diametrically opposed views on the front and back side of the same object.

History have shown that even a overly superior force cannot easily subdue and pacify a people willing to fight to last man for their country. It is not like a country is going to attack Jamaica, subdue its people without Jamaicans at home and abroad having a say in the matter is it? As I have said before I once knew a lieutenant in the JDF that walked off his post and onto a flight bound for Ethiopia to fight on the side of the Imperial Forces when he heard that Haile Selassie I was overthrown in a coup.

I think we must be a little more honest with ourselves, not because some us has chosen eternal and perpetual bliss must we not think about the cost to Jamaicans living on the Rock, of the things we are advocating. Never mind the price tag, to keep the fancy boot-n-brass-polishing Army, <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">that is only good for parades and patrols with the various State Murder Squads.</span>

[Dyoll_73]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I like about Jamaicans is our genetic predisposition to <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">cognitive dissonance and heavy dose of hypocrisy.</span>

I think we must be a little more honest with ourselves, not because some us has chosen eternal and perpetual bliss must we not think about the cost to Jamaicans living on the Rock, of the things we are advocating. Never mind the price tag, to keep the fancy boot-n-brass-polishing Army, <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">that is only good for parades and patrols with the various State Murder Squads.</span> </div></div>

I find that some of the thinking on this board on this subject partly explains why Jamaica is in the problem it finds itself.

[X]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I like about Jamaicans is our genetic predisposition to <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">cognitive dissonance and heavy dose of hypocrisy.</span>

I think we must be a little more honest with ourselves, not because some us has chosen eternal and perpetual bliss must we not think about the cost to Jamaicans living on the Rock, of the things we are advocating. Never mind the price tag, to keep the fancy boot-n-brass-polishing Army, <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">that is only good for parades and patrols with the various State Murder Squads.</span> </div></div>

I find that some of the thinking on this board on this subject partly <span style="font-weight: bold">explains why Jamaica is in the problem it finds itself.</span> </div></div>
nope...
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">I.M.F</span></span> (<span style="font-weight: bold">I</span>s <span style="font-weight: bold">M</span>anley <span style="font-weight: bold">F</span>ault) ..

[jah_yout]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok- say you abolish the jdf;
do you think jamaica would need any type of defense force? if so waht type? just the police?
i take it you don't forsee any need for a defense force ever arising in the future?
or should that just be a bridge they cross if/when/ever they get to it? </div></div>

Fair questions.

Yes, a nation needs a defense as part of national security apparatus; this goes with the notion of sovereignty. As such, I'm inclined to support the idea of a national reserve corp, trained as a result of mandatory service or some other incentive-based program, that can be called upon in the event - again, <span style="font-weight: bold">the remote possibility of an event</span> - that the homeland needs to be defended. Obviously, this will require some administrative body to co-ordinate activities - but a JDF wouldn't be required. The personnel making up this corp would be people serving in civilian positions in every day life - farmers, shop-keepers, accountants, engineers, lawyers, fishermen, civil servants, etc. This reserve corp would be relatively cheap compared to maintaining the JDF which, up to 2003, spent over US 31 million dollars on military expenditures. Imagine how much of that money could go to more valuable endeavors.

I will say that even with this reserve corp, it would have only basic equipment. <span style="font-weight: bold">The cost of equiping a modern fighting force to mount a respectable defense against, let's say the US, because we all know that's who we have in mind, mostly, </span>is far beyond Jamaica's capacity for the foreseeable future. It will take billions of US dollars. Given Jamaica's pressing developmental priorities, that kind of money to spend on military expenditures <span style="font-weight: bold">when the country faces no known threats externally</span>, is foolish. Currently, the JDF would not be able to defend Jamaica from the kind of military that is most likely to attack Jamaica. In order to get the JDF to a level with equipment comparable to its likely rivals, it takes billions. Jamaica would have to do what some tyranical, despotic regimes do: starve/impoverish their citizens while the resources goes into weaponry. </div></div>

interesting; although i disagree that the homeland needing to be defended is a 'remote possibility' (maybe at this instance)or that it is only america everyone has in mind...i can see your arguments against the jdf but your solution leaves me a little nervous;
even what you talk about will require a lot of money as well and i don't see how spending on military equipment can be avoided even if j-a went that route;
at the end of the day we must acknowledge that a nation that lacks the ability to defend itself can never be really sovereign and many of us are living in a fool's paradise thinking nothing can ever happen to jamaica from without (perhaps because we are so used to destroying ourselves from within?).
i agree it's not the most pressing issue right now but an important one nonetheless...&amp; as i always say- it all goes back to leadership- what are these guys' vision for jamaica? what should be the country's direction?
i don't think creating/maintaining an adequate military force necessarily means other areas have to suffer as much as we think...it just shows the lack of creative leadership over the last 40 years that we are even having this debate;

[Dyoll_73]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... even what you talk about will require a lot of money as well and i don't see how spending on military equipment can be avoided even if j-a went that route;</div></div>

Well, it depends on what you call a lot of money. Sure, there is a cost to training the additional personnel (apart from those who served in the defunct JDF), equipment and facilities, and the administrative body, but bear in mind that they will return to everyday civilian life after their training is completed and to be called in the event that their service is required. I don't have an estimate as to how much this will cost annually, but as things are, it would be much cheaper than keeping a military all year round.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">at the end of the day we must acknowledge that a nation that lacks the ability to defend itself can never be really sovereign ...</div></div>

Yes, a sovereign nation needs some defense, but it's a different thing from saying that if it cannot defend itself, it cannot be called sovereign. If this was the standard of sovereignty, then a lot of countries couldn't be described as sovereign. The notion of sovereignty has evolved over centuries from classical Rome to the current time but it is usually referring to the authority a nation exercises within its own territory, and from whom that authority is derived. Some countries have the pretense of a national defense, as inadequate as it may be, but they can be subdued militarily by stronger nations. Should they be considered as not being sovereign? And some countries with a relatively strong military can also be conquered by even stronger nations? The conquered country is NOT sovereign?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... and many of us are living in a fool's paradise thinking nothing can ever happen to jamaica from without ... </div></div>

Not true. Many of us simply try to make a reasonable assessment of the potential for some external threat relative to Jamaica's current resources. What would you call the kind of thinking that invents enemies to rationalize keeping the JDF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i don't think creating/maintaining an adequate military force necessarily means other areas have to suffer as much as we think...</div></div>

To the contrary, it is very expensive. Consider what it will cost to equip a modern fighting force capable of withstanding the kinds of threats Jamaica would most likely face. Do you know how much an F-16, for example, would cost?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....at the end of the day we must acknowledge that a nation that lacks the ability to defend itself can never be really sovereign and many of us are living in a fool's paradise thinking nothing can ever happen to jamaica from without (perhaps because we are so used to destroying ourselves from within.</div></div>

You are right. Jamaica cannot defend itself, so why should we even think we are a Sovereign Nation right now?
Guns, drugs and bodies pour into and out of our Ports daily, the country is virtually broke and have little or no influence left in the Caribbean, much less the world.

In my mind the Greatest Defense is self-sufficiency and we are minus in that already. Maybe the fact that we are so badly off is making us less attractive to the legions of dragons and the phantom armies that we imagine is out there just waiting to pounce on us. Maybe they are already having their way with us by selling us more can goods, trafficking more illicit stuff through our ports and having us borrow ourselves into submission.

[britisha]

Re: A proposal to sell Up Park Camp

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I find that some of the thinking on this board on this subject partly explains why Jamaica is in the problem it finds itself. </div></div>

You can say that again !!


<span style="font-weight: bold">LMAO</span>