Jamaicans abroad upset at sale of Air J

**barosa** · 02-11-2010, 06:35 PM

Re: Gov’t selling 2 Air J planes to pay IRS debt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magix</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It shud pain us to know dat "Uncle" is now in a position "to squeeze our balls" by seizing owa planes if they are not sold... Cha!
</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">From de hights of 20+ aircraft from flying to 30 destinations as far away as Frankfurt, London, Manchester and Los Angeles now we're down to aircraft being sold to pay back taxes and the airline being given for FREE to a foreign government. Pain indeed!</span> </div></div>
Magix, when stated above as you just did, the PAIN is more severe. A take off from Otis Redding song "Pain in my Heart" should be written for us as "PAIN IN OUR HEARTS"... From 20+ aircrafts down to whatever we now have! I have no idea. I can't blame Golding for current disaster but he is in a "no win" situation... That said he should try his level best not to give away what's left of AirJam. If the deal with CAL becomes a "No Go" there should be a"fall back" plan...

Just asking since I know nothing of what it takes beside "money" to run an Airline. What would be the minimum number of aircrafts it take to run a lean and viable operation? Could it be done with 5 or 6 of the best they now have, traveling to locations that matter most? They need to do SOMETHING or be seen to be doing Something if our govt wants to keep Faith with the Jamaican Nationals far and wide. ~ Mi nat very pleased...

**RichD** · 02-11-2010, 11:01 PM

Re: Btw mi did tink seh wi lease wi planes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magix</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're joking right! Only 17mil?
Wonder if dem can gi mi credit fi dat a de bank. </div></div> yuh si why i haffi question when i hear numbers thrown around

**evanovitch** · 02-12-2010, 02:33 AM

Caribbean Airlines must be Jamaica's National Airline

Caribbean Airlines is to be designated the national carrier upon takeover of Air Jamaica.

A copy of a non-binding agreement signed between Jamaica and Caribbean Airlines shows that the government must designate the Trinidad-based carrier as Jamaica's National Airline.

A Letter of Intent signed between Caribbean Airlines and the government on January 22 has set out clearly that the government's best efforts are to get Air Jamaica divested by March 31 to the Trinidadians and completely wound up on or before July 1.

But for Jamaicans who are emotional about the national airline, there are some elements which will not go down well.

Chief among them is a stipulation that <span style="font-weight: bold">if</span> Air Jamaica goes to Caribbean Airlines, the Lovebird will have to take steps to get Jamaicans to buy into Caribbean Airlines as the national carrier.

And for the government, that would mean ensuring that Caribbean Airlines is afforded all the privileges of a national carrier including that no steps should be taken to "materially discriminate" against the interests of Caribbean Airlines' Jamaica operations.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Additionally, the government is expected to give the "national airline" status to Caribbean Airlines for as long as a minimum level of service is maintained in the country but there were no clear parameters as to what that minimum level of service is.</span>

For all that, there seems to be very little in the deal for the government.

It is expected to get no less than a 10% stake in Caribbean Airlines, with no indications if capital injections of that proportion would have to be found if needed.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Also, no Air Jamaica liability can be transferred to Caribbean Airlines</span>.

<span style="font-style: italic">That must be absorbed by the government as Caribbean Airlines is not to be seen as a successor airline to the Lovebird</span>.

**ackeepod** · 02-12-2010, 03:52 AM

Re: Caribbean Airlines must be Jamaica's National Airline

Imbert: CAL head above waters
> > Peter Balroop
> > Published: 7 Feb 2010
> >
> > &#65279;Colm Imbert
> >
> > Peter Balroop
> > Caribbean Airlines (Cal), which is likely to break even in 2009, its
third year of operation, has grand plans to become the flagship carrier of
the region, and taking over all profitable Air Jamaica routes is part of
that scheme. This was disclosed by Works and Transport Minister Colm Imbert
in the Lower House last Friday when he dispelled once and for all any notion
that Cal, backed by the T&T Government, intended to pay off Air Jamaica’s
massive debt. Imbert said in the wake of Jamaican Prime Minster Bruce
Golding coming to T&T to meet Prime Minister Patrick Manning a “non-binding
letter of intent” had been dispatched to the Jamaica Government. The details
of the letter would have to remain confidential but there were no proposals
for either “bailout, handout or merger,” he added.
> >
> > If Cal took over Air Jamaica’s routes it would be a deal forged in the
spirit of Caribbean integration, according to Imbert. If Air Jamaica folded,
the Jamaican Government would have to buy airlift to support the country’s
tourism sector, one of its biggest revenue earners, but with Cal on board it
was a “win-win situation.” Cal, Imbert told the House, was not a successor
airline to BWIA but a completely new entity which operated on a pure
business model, far from the sphere of political influence, particularly
from the Government. He said while airlines were folding all around the
world Cal was keeping its head above water. In 2007, its first year of
operation Cal had sustained a loss of $117,000 though revenue had been a
whopping $1 billion.
> >
> > In 2008 Cal turned a profit of $34 million from revenue of $1.4 billion,
and it would be even in 2009, Imbert stated. He was clearing the air on UNC
MP Dr Tim Gopeesingh that the Government intended to give Air Jamaica
financial assistance from the Caribbean Petroleum Fund. Gopeesingh stressed
that he had filed a motion on the adjournment in the House out of concern
that the Government was being tight-lipped about the deal it had forged with
the Jamaican Government over the airline. Cal had cost $1.5 billion to
restructure, Gopeesingh said, noting that the Government had sold the
landing slots of BWIA at Heathrow Airport, London cheaply for $5 million
when they were now going at $100 million.
> >

**Magician** · 02-12-2010, 11:09 AM

Re: Gov’t selling 2 Air J planes to pay IRS debt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just asking since I know nothing of what it takes beside "money" to run an Airline. What would be the minimum number of aircrafts it take to run a lean and viable operation? Could it be done with 5 or 6 of the best they now have, traveling to locations that matter most? They need to do SOMETHING or be seen to be doing Something if our govt wants to keep Faith with the Jamaican Nationals far and wide. ~ Mi nat very pleased... </div></div>

The economy of scale benefits airlines greatly. It is cheaper to operate 20 aircraft of one type, than to operate 6. To run an airline there is a minimum basic level of staff that you need on the payroll. Whether you have one plane or 20 you still need them. You need to have millions of dollars in spare parts and engines for the aircraft so that when things need to be replaced the aircraft is not out of service for an exteneded period of time.

Air Jamaica was actually turning a profit all thru 2009. However it's debt servicing costs are so high that on the balance sheets it looks like a loss. If GOJ did what TNT did with BWIA, clear its debt obligations, rehire only essential staff, and renegotiate all lease agreements, Air Jamaica could be a profitable airline. Even a restructuring a la US Chapter 11 would be good.

The fact that AirTran Airways just opened up MoBay to Orlando, Atlanta and Bmore meas that there is a market for it. All there are AirJ marktets. The reason Atlanta was cut from AirJs network was not because it wasn't profitable, but because some aircraft were leased thru middle men at exorbitant costs.

CAL, by being nominated the sole flag carrier of Jamaica, wants to make sure that some smart businesspeople don't start another airline in Air Jamaica's place and nyam dem suppa.

**RichD** · 02-12-2010, 01:49 PM

Re: Caribbean Airlines must be Jamaica's National Airline

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Golding telling half truths - JALPA</span>

In the meantime, the Jamaica Airline Pilots' Association (JALPA) is contesting statements made by Prime Minister Bruce Golding about the stipulations in the international call for expressions of interest to purchase of Air Jamaica.

In Parliament this week, Mr. Golding challenged statements that the document inviting bids had stipulated that any interested parties would have to absorb some of the airline's debt.

The Prime Minister read from a memorandum in which he said no mention was made of absorbing debt.

H<span style="font-weight: bold">owever, Captain Russell Capleton, JALPA Chairman said on RJR's Beyond the Headlines Thursday evening that Mr. Golding did not give the full picture.</span>

"He suggested that in its memorandum offered or indicated that the government would assume all the accumulated debt of Air Jamaica and having heard that, we went and looked back at the tender document again and (the Prime Minister's statement) was only half truths. The memorandum said any viable partner would have to willing to at least participate in some of that debt and based on that, we had estimated that since the debt stood at $1.4 billion, that anybody coming to that table with less than$500 million couldn't be credible," Captain Capleton said.

He added that this stipulation was one of the key reasons why JALPA had not put in a bid.

The pilots' association says it intends to write to the Prime Minister to seek clarification about the status of its bid for the national airline.</div></div>

**lonewolf** · 02-12-2010, 04:21 PM

Re: Jamaicans abroad upset at sale of Air J

Caribbean Airlines to be Jamaica's exclusive national carrier
Published: Friday | February 12, 2010

R. Anne Shirley, Business Writer

<span style="font-weight: bold">The Government has agreed to ensure that Caribbean Airlines is designated the exclusive national carrier of Jamaica under the air services agreements between itself and other states.</span>

This was stated in the non-binding letter of intent signed on January 22 by the Government, Air Jamaica Limited, Air Jamaica Holdings Limited and Caribbean Airlines, a company owned by the Government of Trinidad and Tobago.

Under this agreement, the parties are committed to making best efforts to sign legally binding agreements by March 31. In this regard, the GOJ and Air Jamaica will take all necessary steps to effect the cessation of operations of Air Jamaica on or before July 1, and as soon there-after close Air Jamaica.

Caribbean Airlines will commence its Jamaican operations on or before July 1 upon the cessation of operations of Air Jamaica. Effective as of the consummation of the closing, the Government has agreed that "Caribbean Airlines shall be the exclusive national carrier of Jamaica and, in this regard, will not request designation of national carrier status for any other air carrier for as long as the Jamaican operations maintain a minimum level of service and meet certain other criteria, which in each case will be set forth in the definitive agreements".

Prior to the cessation of operations, Air Jamaica will "implement revenue management and communication measures as determined by Caribbean Airlines and reasonably acceptable to the Government of Jamaica in order to actively manage market share, enhance passenger loyalty to the national carrier, and help preserve the competitiveness of the launch of the Jamaican operations (of Caribbean Airlines)".

Air Jamaica currently flies to five destinations on 13 routes. The destinations are the United States, Canada, Cuba, The Bahamas and Curaçao. Last year, the airline carried 1.1 million passengers on these routes.

In Appendix I, attached to the letter of intent, Caribbean Airlines stated it would start up its Jamaican operations by adding a network of routes to its international network.

Caribbean Airlines will also operate a Kingston, Port-of-Spain, Georgetown (Guyana) route one flight/seven days per week, but this route will not form part of the Jamaican operations.

In addition, Caribbean Airlines has indicated that possible intra-island flight between Kingston and Montego Bay is "to be considered". So the advantage that Air Jamaica passengers had to connect between Kingston and Montego Bay will likely be lost.

For the initial Jamaican operations, it is estimated that the routes will be operated with "five to seven aircraft with an estimated number of cockpit and crew, respectively, of 70 to 90 and 140 to 160".

The agreement expects that there will be "synergies and rationalisation in many areas including ground handling (flight and passenger) and distribution".

The Air Jamaica Frequent Flyer Programme will be integrated and rationalised into the Caribbean Airlines programme. In terms of the management and personnel to be employed to man the Jamaican operations, Caribbean Airlines shall have "absolute discretion in the selection and recruitment of any Air Jamaica employees on new contractual arrangements".

Airline tickets to be honoured

Also, the fuel hedge now enjoyed by Caribbean Airlines will be extended to the Jamaica operations.

Caribbean Airlines will honour airline tickets bought on Air Jamaica on routes which will comprise the Jamaican operation and have not yet flown at the time of the closing of Air Jamaica. On or before the closing, "the Government of Jamaica will pay to Caribbean Airlines an amount equal to 93 per cent of the passenger fare value of the Air Jamaica ticket fares".

In consideration for all of the above, the agreement shall contain an anti-dilution provision "to insure that Government of Jamaica retains no less than a 10 per cent equity interest in Caribbean Airlines after closing, giving effect to any equity funding post-closing needed to meet the requisite cash threshold. Such securities shall be of the same class of securities held by the Government of Trinidad and Tobago and there shall be no securities senior to it".

The Government of Jamaica will also appoint one director to the board of Caribbean Airlines.

**barosa** · 02-12-2010, 04:50 PM

Re: Gov’t selling 2 Air J planes to pay IRS debt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magix</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: barosa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just asking since I know nothing of what it takes beside "money" to run an Airline. What would be the minimum number of aircrafts it take to run a lean and viable operation? Could it be done with 5 or 6 of the best they now have, traveling to locations that matter most? They need to do SOMETHING or be seen to be doing Something if our govt wants to keep Faith with the Jamaican Nationals far and wide. ~ Mi nat very pleased... </div></div>

The economy of scale benefits airlines greatly. It is cheaper to operate 20 aircraft of one type, than to operate 6. To run an airline there is a minimum basic level of staff that you need on the payroll. Whether you have one plane or 20 you still need them. You need to have millions of dollars in spare parts and engines for the aircraft so that when things need to be replaced the aircraft is not out of service for an exteneded period of time.

<span style="font-style: italic">Thanks for your information. The economy of scale seems to be an important factor in the Airline business I guess our managers were not savvy business types; If the Trinis could manage BWIA to avoid such "pitfalls", why couldn't they? Apparently, the TnT boys were competing with us in that department and we were blind to it...</span>

Air Jamaica was actually turning a profit all thru 2009. However it's debt servicing costs are so high that on the balance sheets it looks like a loss. <span style="font-weight: bold">If GOJ did what TNT did with BWIA, clear its debt obli due to poorgations, rehire only essential staff, and renegotiate all lease agreements, Air Jamaica could be a profitable airline. Even a restructuring a la US Chapter 11 would be good.</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">BWOY! this was clearly due to poor financial management and neglect. No one seems to have been concerned with re-structuring the debt. The Trinis may have been laying low and watching us.</span>

The fact that AirTran Airways just opened up MoBay to Orlando, Atlanta and Bmore meas that there is a market for it. All there are AirJ marktets. The reason Atlanta was cut from AirJs network was not because it wasn't profitable, but because some aircraft were leased thru middle men at exorbitant costs.

<span style="font-style: italic">All due to sloppy and ineffective management.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">CAL, by being nominated the sole flag carrier of Jamaica, wants to make sure that some smart businesspeople don't start another airline in Air Jamaica's place and nyam dem suppa.</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">Sure they would, why would we blame them? They just happened to be better business folks than our "clowns" running and managing AirJam... The Trinis must have been patiently waiting all this time knowing darn well that the stupid Jamaicans would bankrupt the "Love Bird" and eventually come to them... The sad fact is, that so much of our National Treasurer seems to have been thrown down a big "sink hole" The Jamaican people have been left "holding the bag"...</span></div></div>

Magix, thanks for your eye opener. Somehow, I'm not feeling too good, but it's not your fault; it's attributed to both our governments and their clowns.
_____________________________

"At a time of universal deceit," wrote George Orwell, "telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

**Tuff Gong** · 02-12-2010, 07:23 PM

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> as far as i know the GOJ didn't own the DEBT ..they served as guarantor....Air jamaica was servicing the debt.

I would like to see all bidders offered the same deal being offered CAL. Was Indigo offered the same deal? Was Sprint offered the same deal? </div></div>

LOL it is amazing you suddenly have all these questions but you only ask them on the Board. You did not even listen Mr. Golding's presentation in Parliament <span style="font-style: italic">(it goes for the other experts here as well)</span>. This argument is all about emotional wailing on the board and cherry picking what to wail about.

The deal with <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Spirit Airline</span> and Indigo is no more. They are out.
Obviously each proposal and any deal have unique features, but I am pretty sure no one as going to take on any debts by Air Joke and certainly if one day Air Jamaica stopped paying or was wound up any debts guaranteed by the GOJ would fall on the GOJ.
So whether the GOJ borrowed the money or merely stood as a guarantor it neither here nor there.

In any case continuing to draw on the infamous purported meeting this what the Prime Minster had to say about indigo:
Indigo Partners also was only willing to give govt. 20% ownership of Jamaican operations, no shares in entire Spirit Airlines. [/quote]

**Tuff Gong** · 02-12-2010, 07:40 PM

Re: Gov’t selling 2 Air J planes to pay IRS debt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why wasn't the amount owed disclosed to parliament? How much are they getting for these planes? who is buying them?

</div></div>

The Prime Minister was saying this in <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Parliament</span> the guys that ran up most of the debts were on the other side of him. I am pretty sure they know the <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">exact figure owed</span>. If not they would have jumped all over the PM and hold a Press Conference about it the next day!

**evanovitch** · 02-12-2010, 08:13 PM

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

why listen to his presentation wen we know it is not the full package...betta to get di real story from sources....

dere is a need to know attitude wen it come to yaad an di govaments feel di people dont need to know nuff....

btw, who writes his speeches? the civil service, parlimentary secretary..always wonda if dem ha speech writers like up yah

an TG dont is a discussion board n it is in the diaspora so failing being a memba of any official group fi yaad where else can ordinary diasporans meet an gab yaadstyle

an dont u cheery pick wat in every post u want to wail about...said ting u know...like i say a yaad trait..dont u cherry pick on odda sites...even pon Observer dem did tell u if u ongle ha reason fi find fault rada dan offer discussion y bodda

**Tuff Gong** · 02-12-2010, 08:45 PM

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why listen to his presentation wen we know it is not the full package...betta to get di real story from sources....</div></div>

The presentation is Parliament may not be the full package. You don't know that, I don't that that is why it important if you are going to speak with any kind of authority, ask all kinds of technical and B.S. questions and ever more funny quote from the an excerpted presentation it would be important to at least try to listen to the thing for yourself.

As for this being a discussion board. No there is rarely anything approaching discussions in these fora. This is board for venting and posting your latest pet peeves.
If this was any kind of discussion board members would be careful to read the post of other members, respect that something has been posted already and not start 50 other related posts all over the forums.
Members would also follow the rules to post in the correct fora and provide links to the post that they are quoting from so members who want to discuss the issue can at least do some research before speaking.

To continue repeating baseless assertions, putting words into posters mouths and answering them is not conducive to discussions.

**evanovitch** · 02-12-2010, 10:12 PM

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> To continue repeating baseless assertions, putting words into posters mouths and answering them is not conducive to discussions.</div></div>

u ha any grounding rung u star...rubber shoes , a rubber mouse pad r such

**RichD** · 02-16-2010, 10:30 AM

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You did not even listen <span style="font-weight: bold">Mr. Golding's presentation in Parliament </span><span style="font-style: italic">(it goes for the other experts here as well)</span>. This argument is all about emotional wailing on the board and cherry picking what to wail about.

</div></div>
so that is where you go to get the <span style="font-weight: bold">facts</span>?

**Tuff Gong** · 02-16-2010, 03:29 PM

Re: Diaspora and Air J, urban farms, students, Haiti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You did not even listen <span style="font-weight: bold">Mr. Golding's presentation in Parliament </span><span style="font-style: italic">(it goes for the other experts here as well)</span>. This argument is all about emotional wailing on the board and cherry picking what to wail about.

</div></div>
so that is where you go to get the <span style="font-weight: bold">facts</span>? </div></div>

<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">RichD</span> before you laugh consider the whole of what I have written.
The Answer is yes and no. But if you are poop-pooping information from Parliament, an interview with the Prime Minister, numerous other reports and public speeches, then none of us on this board will have anything to work with, since not one of us is privy to a seat at any of these negotiations.

The very same report <span style="font-style: italic">(of which I heard a fuller account)</span>, is the basis of these last conversation on this subject. It is from the same you drew your question, which I attempted to answer.

The very question you asked must have been considered in Parliament, since it would have been an easy political point to score. To back the PM in a corner and to prove that he is lying about needing to sell the Airlines to pay debts would have been easy pickings were it was available.

Jamaicans abroad upset at sale of Air J

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