If slavery never happened

[churchgirl]

Re: If slavery never happened

Serenity82 and JustBlue, please refrain from threadjacking. If you wish to have personal debate amongst yourselves, do so via PM.

Serenity82 I have already told you to familiarize yourself with the forum rules, the ones you agreed to uphold upon joing this Board. Apparently you haven't done so. Calling Sukuna a "racist" is not acceptable per the rules, specifically "Do not make any statement, accusation, comment, or opinion that may be considered (a) harmful to, libelous or slanderous to, any person, country or company.".

<font color="red">Consider this your second warning. </font>

[rufian]

Re: If slavery never happened

I think I understand how you come become aggravated, think! How am I being racist against black people?
The funniest thing is out of the topic alone you cry negativity, this negativity my dear is your own. You gave your own meaning to the topic not me [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
I am from a soceity where people pretend as if racism does not bother them. And if you talk about anything you are suffering from it. In fact, that is a lie because all those who keep quiet are mourning in silence and in denial. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Call it luxury and an aim to be real, I have accomplished the greater part of what I wanted to. Being black is not a hinderance as a matter of fact me know how fe use it to my advantage [img]/forums/images/graemlins/70365-flirt.gif[/img] Furthermore, why are you worried about white people reading this thread? You see any white people bout here of significance fe yu fraid dem go think them better than you just because dem read this ya? If you think that white people are better than you and you fraid a dem, dat is your own problem not mine. Having said that, achieve what you want, being black is not a stumbling block. We are not all as weak as you say, maybe you just are and fearful with it.

[rufian]

Re: If slavery never happened

The reason I have asked you to explain yourself is based on your use of the word benefit. You could only speak of benefit when something or a condition is gained that would not if the event of slavery did not occur. In other words, in order to see benefit, we would have to look back at Africa, where our lives would be today and compare that with now. The same we can do by comparing whites before african slavery and now. I can see how Europeans have benefited from slavery and have continued to maintained wealth but I fail to see how we have benefited. Proportionally our lost is far more greater than our gain which in most cases is accompanied by many disadvantaged. Hence the need for reparations.

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At this time long after transatlantic slavery and the use of their labour on various plantations we have benefitted not as a white male, but as a society.

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There are many companies have benefited from slavery, have I benefited because I can now go to them and ask for a job?

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Missis Sukuna, the years subsequent to slavery has brought into the world the Tubmans and Carvers, the Garveys and McKays, the Muhammed Alis and Oprahs and millions others both of many other races as you are well aware.

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And you think they could not exist without slavery?

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By the humility, the inhumanity, the degradation suffered by your foreparents as slaves and by the extraordinary exploitation by the White owners and the powers that were at the time, does not negate the fact that by all that there has not been benefit and opportunity made to you and others alive today.

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what kind of opportunities are you talking about?

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The work done on the cotton and cane fields from South America through to the West Indies to North America by your foreparents not only made it wealthy for their owners, but what they did from the first sugar crystalized and the first thread yarned, was to create wealth.
In those days wealth was chanelled to a few and not back to the persons as slaves. Today wealth derived from all their toil and from their lives you, their sons and daughters have benefitted as well as us around you.

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Once again, I only benefit if I gained something I would not gain had slavery not existed. Try and answer me along these line 'If slavery would not exist you would miss out on....' [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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From their subjugadation they were free by the spilling of much of their blood.

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I am not convinced that slavery was abolished because of any slave revolution.

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Being free they were subject to freedoms, such as education and the right to earn a living.

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Well now you come, this is what I wanted to see from you long time. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] So, if slavery did not exist, I as an African would be without education? I would not earn my living?

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With all that was behind them, they moved on. Today like you, do not live in slave barracks, but in homes, and do not give or allow themselves to be exploited unfairly.

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Would I live in a slave barrack if slavery did not occur? Where would I live? Did our exploitation end as of slavery?

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From the imbalanced social structures of the era of slavery and through the making of a society through the era of the Martin Luther King`s civil rights movement and the hard core stances of the Huey`s and Angela Davis` Black Panthers the west has benefitted.

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What about before the inbalanced social structures before slavery? Would a Martin Luther King or Black Panther be necessary had it not been for slavery?

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You are no doubt better off than your foreparents ever were.

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my foreparents before slavery?

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And you benefitted not only by what you have done for yourself in your lifetime, but by the social structure laid as time went by first started by that slave on the plantation.

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And before slavery? There wasn't anything that I am not benefiting from?

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Emotions may cloud the facts but in reality we today have all been given opportunity by the works of slaves and those who have survived and made this world that you draw your salaries a place of liberty and a place to make do what one chooses.

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Again, without slavery be an issue? Without slavery would salary be an issue? Without the intrusion of European attavisms would choices be an issue?

According to you, we should be happy that slavery happened, right? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Seveen]

Re: If slavery never happened

if slavery never happened do you think africans would have be able to stop the deprivation that is is occuring there now?

[rufian]

Re: If slavery never happened

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if slavery never happened do you think africans would have be able to stop the deprivation that is is occuring there now?

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I am not sure that I am following you. You mentioned before that the children in the diaspora are the ones keeping an eye on africa. Which deprivation are you talking about exactly?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: If slavery never happened

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if slavery never happened do you think africans would have be able to stop the deprivation that is is occuring there now?

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Why do you assume that there would have been a deprivation to stop,in the first place?
Do you think that Africans would be in such a deprived state if it was not for slavery??

[Seveen]

Re: If slavery never happened

by the time of slavery the "underdevelopment of africa" had already started as noted earlier in this thread [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

the shift from subsistence society to capitalism was already underway

[rufian]

Re: If slavery never happened

do pinpoint it

[Seveen]

Re: If slavery never happened

how did africans become enslaved?

[rufian]

Re: If slavery never happened

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how did africans become enslaved?

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I meant for you to pinpoint what you said
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by the time of slavery the "underdevelopment of africa" had already started as noted earlier in this thread

the shift from subsistence society to capitalism was already underway "

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show me how the first slave sale did all this. by underdevelopment you certainly don't mean slavery.

[Seveen]

Re: If slavery never happened

here's some and it goes on from there - this "breakdown" caused enslavement and made the atmosphere ripe for colonialism and conquests - and thing is - when i read some of it - it could almost be said about today's enviroment . . .

excerpt from earlier in the thread:

The principles of family and deferment to age were slowly breaking down throughout the centuries preceding the arrival of Europeans in their sailing ships. Changes in technology and in the division of labour made that inevitable. The introduction of iron, for example, gave economic and military strength to those who could make and acquire it. Better tools meant more food and a greater population, but the latter tended to outrun the supplies of material goods, and the possibilities of wealth opened up by the possession of iron were seized upon by a few to their own advantage. Skilled workers in iron, cloth, pottery, leather, salt-making, etc. tended to pass on their skills in closed groups known as castes. That ensured that the division of labour operated in their favour, because their position was privileged and

strategic. Iron workers were particularly favoured in some African societies in which they either became the ruling groups or were very close to the top of the social hierarchy. The division of labour also carried over into non-material spheres, producing professional minstrels and historians. They too had certain special rights and privileges, notably the ability to criticise freely without fear of reprisal. In some circumstances, skilled castes were reduced to very low status. But what was rare, and in any case it does not contradict the general assertion that the tendency was for communalism to give rise to more and more stratification.

Social stratification was the basis for the rise of classes and for social antagonisms. To some extent, this was a logical follow-up of the previous non-antagonistic differences in communal society. For instance, old men could use their control over land allocation, over bride-price and over other traditional exchanges to try and establish themselves as a privileged economic stratum. Secret Societies arose in the area that is now Liberia, Sierra Leone and Guinea, and they permitted knowledge, power and wealth to pass into the hands of the elders and ultimately to the elders of particular lineages.

The contradiction between young men and their elders was not the type that caused violent revolutions. But young men clearly had reasons for resenting their dependence on elders, especially when it came to such vital personal matters as the acquisition of wives. When disgruntled, they could either leave their communities and set up for themselves or they could challenge the principles within the society. In either case, the trend was that some individuals and families were more successful than others, and those families established themselves as permanent rulers. Then age ceased to matter as much because even a junior could succeed to his father, once the notion of royal blood or royal lineage was established.

In the period of transition, while African society retained many features that were undisputably communal, it also accepted the principle that some families or clans or lineages were destined to rule and others were not. This was true not only of cultivators but of pastoralists as well. In fact, livestock became unevenly distributed much more readily van [and; and those families with the largest herds became socially and politically dominant.

[Blackstar*]

Re: If slavery never happened

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if slavery never happened do you think africans would have be able to stop the deprivation that is is occuring there now?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you assume that there would have been a deprivation to stop,in the first place?
Do you think that Africans would be in such a deprived state if it was not for slavery??

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why Evan posted the excerpt from Walter Rodney's book - so that readers could inform themselves on Africa's state of development when Europeans started this slavery business. But you know, Dr. D, you can lead a horse to water, etc., etc.

[rufian]

Re: If slavery never happened

one paragraph woulda do. I am still not sure exactly what you mean
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The principles of family and deferment to age were slowly breaking down throughout the centuries preceding the arrival of Europeans in their sailing ships. Changes in technology and in the division of labour made that inevitable. The introduction of iron, for example, gave economic and military strength to those who could make and acquire it. Better tools meant more food and a greater population, but the latter tended to outrun the supplies of material goods, and the possibilities of wealth opened up by the possession of iron were seized upon by a few to their own advantage. Skilled workers in iron, cloth, pottery, leather, salt-making, etc. tended to pass on their skills in closed groups known as castes. That ensured that the division of labour operated in their favour, because their position was privileged and

strategic.

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if it is the above, where do you see underdevelopment?

[Seveen]

Re: If slavery never happened

[ QUOTE ]
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if slavery never happened do you think africans would have be able to stop the deprivation that is is occuring there now?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you assume that there would have been a deprivation to stop,in the first place?
Do you think that Africans would be in such a deprived state if it was not for slavery??

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why Evan posted the excerpt from Walter Rodney's book - so that readers could inform themselves on Africa's state of development when Europeans started this slavery business. But you know, Dr. D, you can lead a horse to water, etc., etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

and evan's excerpt includes this and more as the state before europeans - go back and read again [img]/forums/images/graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img]

In the period of transition, while African society retained many features that were undisputably communal, it also accepted the principle that some families or clans or lineages were destined to rule and others were not. This was true not only of cultivators but of pastoralists as well. In fact, livestock became unevenly distributed much more readily van [and; and those families with the largest herds became socially and politically dominant.

[rufian]

Re: If slavery never happened

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if slavery never happened do you think africans would have be able to stop the deprivation that is is occuring there now?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you assume that there would have been a deprivation to stop,in the first place?
Do you think that Africans would be in such a deprived state if it was not for slavery??

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why Evan posted the excerpt from Walter Rodney's book - so that readers could inform themselves on Africa's state of development when Europeans started this slavery business. But you know, Dr. D, you can lead a horse to water, etc., etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

and evan's excerpt includes this and more as the state before europeans - go back and read again [img]/forums/images/graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img]

In the period of transition, while African society retained many features that were undisputably communal, it also accepted the principle that some families or clans or lineages were destined to rule and others were not. This was true not only of cultivators but of pastoralists as well. In fact, livestock became unevenly distributed much more readily van [and; and those families with the largest herds became socially and politically dominant.

[/ QUOTE ]
and this lead to what? how did this make them ripe for slavery? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]