RIP Hon Dudley Thompson

[R_C]

Re: Comrade Dudley Thompson is dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Political affiliation is of little import....</div></div>

Franksterr , that is not a serious response.

Anyone who lived in Jamaica in the 70’s or took the time to study the history of that era in depth would not have answered in that manner.

It is “of little import” only if you choose to ignore the fact that Jamaica was all about politics in the 70’s. Jamaica was (and continues to be) a highly tribalised society and in the seventies the fault lines were, for the most part (though not exclusively), political. And for many poor people, one’s political affiliation was a life or death matter, literally, and that goes for both the killers and those they killed. For you to so casually dismiss that reality is outrageous.

I am not sure why you would choose to ignore this, except, of course, for the obvious…..to avoid answering the question.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Comrade Dudley Thompson is dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still Haven't anwsered the question.</div></div>
The question is of no import. This was not an isolated incident by a single individual, this was a actions by a Government over two terms in office that led to thousands of folks losing their lives and many leaving the country of their birth....the kind of thing that is dealt with at the Hague.

There is no near Civil War and again even in war there are rules. In any case there was no return fire at Green Bay, just soldiers killing innocent civilians. There were no one returning fire during the Gold Street Massacre. The little old ladies in the Eventide Home did not own guns and could not have know there were about to be roasted as they slept.

[remo]

Re: Messrs Seaga and Thompson: from foes to friends

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=evanovitch]Messrs Seaga and Thompson: from foes to friends


Tuesday, January 24, 2012 </div></div>
It was Dudley that brought the guns to West Kingston....../quote


Can you prove this?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Messrs Seaga and Thompson: from foes to friends

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=evanovitch]Messrs Seaga and Thompson: from foes to friends


Tuesday, January 24, 2012 </div></div>
It was Dudley that brought the guns to West Kingston....../quote


Can you prove this? </div></div>No need to!
I will follow the same line you and others have for over a decade.

[remo]

Re: Messrs Seaga and Thompson: from foes to friends

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=evanovitch]Messrs Seaga and Thompson: from foes to friends


Tuesday, January 24, 2012 </div></div>
It was Dudley that brought the guns to West Kingston....../quote


Can you prove this? </div></div>No need to!
I will follow the same line you and others have for over a decade. </div></div>

I besmirch people's reputation because I am not too bright...what's your excuse?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Messrs Seaga and Thompson: from foes to friends

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I besmirch people's reputation because I am not too bright...what's your excuse? </div></div>

Same....Just don't want to be the exception to the <span style="font-weight: bold">Board Rule</span>!

[sistactry]

Re: Messrs Seaga and Thompson: from foes to friends

this is what I have been told....

The Green Bay Massacre was a covert operation carried out by special forces of the Jamaican Government on January 5, 1978, in which 5 Jamaica Labour Party supporters were shot dead. The operation entailed the luring of the men into an ambush at the Green Bay Firing Range by members of the Military Intelligence Unit which was and still is a covert operational wing of the Jamaica Defence Force...

The victims all hailed from the Higholborn Street and Gold Street areas of the JLP stronghold Southside community in downtown Kingston. They were identified as being too closely linked to the opposition Jamaica Labour Party and were singled... out as being prime targets for neutralization by members of the leading Peoples National Party (then headed by the now deceased Michael Manley). The Military Intelligence Unit (M.I.U) of the Jamaican army which now headed by Lt. Col Desmond Edwards was required by government members to take &quot;all reasonable steps&quot; to ensure removal either overtly or covertly of anyone who was deemed to be a threat to the Islands' security and to the smooth running of the PNP government....

The operation was executed by undercover agents of the Military Intelligence Unit going into the Southside Community and infiltrating the Southsides' &quot;POW Posse&quot; which was a local gang operating in the area led by the now deceased Franklyn ...Allen aka &quot;Chubby Dread&quot;. There were fourteen men in this gang who were originally targeted for neutralization. The men were promised guns and jobs in the military if they co-operated with the Government. The men, needing the arms and funding, agreed; and in the early hours of January 5, 1978 an army ambulance driven by an MIU operative picked them up at the intersection of Higholborn Street and Port Royal Street, then headed west towards Port Henderson, Saint Catherine where the Green Bay artillery range is located. On arrival at the Military Base, the men were led out to a section of the range where they were given strict instructions not to move as they would be picked up by other persons who would take care of their work requirements and supply them with arms. As soon as the MIU operatives drove off, a specially selected team of snipers from the JDF, led by Major Ian Robinson was lying in ambush in the nearby hills. The soldiers were armed with L8 General Purpose Machine Guns (GPMG), L2A2 Self Loading Rifles and Sterling Sub-Machine Guns. On the receipt of a pre-arranged signal from one of the MIU operatives which was the firing of a single shot from his Browning 9mm pistol, the sniper team opened fire on the group of men from their nest in the hills. Five men fell dead under the hail of gunfire and the remainder fled into nearby bushes. At least one entered the Bay and was rescued by a passing fishing boat...
The official report released by the Military was that the men were shot dead after they were surprised by soldiers doing target practice on the JDF firing range. This report did not stick as the people of Southside demonstrated to protest a...gainst the killings. An official enquiry and Coroners' Inquest was later held in the Spanish Town Coroner's Court where a jury found that the sniper team felt threatened by the men when they opened fire so no one was held criminally responsible for these deaths. The Jamaica Labour Party refused the verdict but did nothing to bring the perpetrators to justice when they were elected on October 30, 1980. The Michael Manley led PNP has always disavowed knowledge of the covert action that took the lives of the men and said it was purely a military operation that was later justified. The incident is considered one of the worst acts of brutality in Jamaican History and is still condemned by members of the Jamaican populace to this day. Several changes have now been made in the operational and administrative functions of the JDF to prevent similar incidents. As a direct result of this act of state brutality, over 1,400 persons were murdered in Jamaica between 1978-1980 when the Michael Manley led PNP was defeated by the opposition JLP led by Edward George Phillip SEAGA who ruled until 1989 when he lost the General elections. Southside is still a volitaile area with frequent outbreaks of political violence and turf war since the occurrence of this incident and Jamaica is still suffering from tribalism up to this day....

[sistactry]

Re: Messrs Seaga and Thompson: from foes to friends

OMG, i expect govts to have secrets, and to an extent have to do 'covertly' operations....but ja have a lot to answer for....and here i am thinking places like haiti have blood on their shoulders.... omg Ja, I cry for you

but we should not hypocritical and give evil persons a eulogy as if they are not evil.

Political tribalism must be torn up from the roots and the seeds destroyed

[franksterr]

Re: Comrade Dudley Thompson is dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=franksterr]Political affiliation is of little import....

Franksterr , that is not a serious response.</div></div>

Oh yes it is a most serious response.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone who lived in Jamaica in the 70’s or took the time to study the history of that era in depth would not have answered in that manner.</div></div>

How so???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is “of little import” only if you choose to ignore the fact that Jamaica was all about politics in the 70’s. Jamaica was (and continues to be) a highly tribalised society and in the seventies the fault lines were, for the most part (though not exclusively), political. And for many poor people, one’s political affiliation was a life or death matter, literally, and that goes for both the killers and those they killed. For you to so casually dismiss that reality is outrageous.</div></div>

You are confusing yourself.....The Question you are asking is stemming from the Question you ask as to who is &quot;YOU&quot;.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the blame to stick it on Manley and the PNP it would make sense for you to kill members and or supporters of the JLP???? Who is &quot;you&quot; ? supporters of the cia</div></div> The &quot;YOU&quot; is American Corporate Interest represented by the CIA. The CIA does not care what party you belong to their sole goal is the removal of the Manley Government, if to achieve that goal it requires killing JLP members and placing blame on the PNP through media control then so be it - Smear campaign.

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If In a rush jump to mnutes starting at 2:29 - 3:12


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not sure why you would choose to ignore this, except, of course, for the obvious…..to avoid answering the question.
</div></div>

I am not avoiding anything, however maybe you are.

I do not fault any one for believing that Manley,Tthompson or the PNP may have been behind these killings, because it is customery for the CIA to first take over the media houses of the countries in which they are working. As they know that in this way they will control the flow and dissemination of information as well as the tone and narrative of the conversation of the populace thereby causing the people to arrive at an opinion or consensus of their engineering.

[franksterr]

Re: Comrade Dudley Thompson is dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=franksterr]Still Haven't anwsered the question.
The question is of no import.</div></div>

First it a stupid question now it is not important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This was not an isolated incident by a single individual, this was a actions by a Government over two terms in office that led to thousands of folks losing their lives and many leaving the country of their birth....the kind of thing that is dealt with at the Hague.</div></div>



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no near Civil War and again even in war there are rules</div></div>

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Here Seaga admitts to it being a near civil war, jump to minutes 3:33 - 4:20.
In war the only rules are the one the victors choose to abide by

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In any case there was no return fire at Green Bay, just soldiers killing innocent civilians. There were no one returning fire during the Gold Street Massacre. The little old ladies in the Eventide Home did not own guns and could not have know there were about to be roasted as they slept. </div></div>

<span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="color: #FF0000">
COVERT ACTION/DESTABILIZATION - is what they called it......plausible deniable
Look leave your parochial thinking behind and see the big picture this is something that the CIA has been doing all over the world and not just in Jamaica.....this is how regime change is achieved, before military intervention is used</span></span>
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These ar all trade mark CIA operations, here is how they usually accomplish this.....they find poor ( semi-illiterate) youths and promise them money or even give huge sums of money, then they find greedy members of the security establishment. Who they also give money, set up a incident and then blame it on the government.
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Go to 4:26 - 5:29 minutes if you in a rush.

So it is time you realize that Jamaicans are involve in these crimes as victims twice, as the willing patsy (prepetrator) and the victims. It is the Responsibility of the then Government to take responsibility by re-acting and being proactive.......but in no way are they the cause or to carry or hold blame.

[R_C]

Re: Comrade Dudley Thompson is dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The &quot;YOU&quot; is American Corporate Interest represented by the CIA. The CIA does not care what party you belong to their sole goal is the removal of the Manley Government,..</div></div>

How convenient. The CIA. Poor Michael. Ever the victim.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> if to achieve that goal it requires killing JLP members and placing blame on the PNP through media control then so be it.</div></div>

Still dancing around the issue by using the passive voice in your rhetoric I see. Requires killing <span style="font-weight: bold">by whom</span> pray? Since the CIA apparently did not send their own employees from HQ in Langley to do the job on the streets of Kingston themselves, I am still waiting to hear who it is specifically that carried out this supposed mission of theirs to “kill JLP members and place the blame on the PNP”

OK let me be more specific, maybe some specific cases of the mayhem from those days might allow you to stop evading the question.

What do you think, in YOUR opinion franksterr, was the party affiliation of the men who: Burned the tenement yard on Orange Lane to the ground and prevented the fire brigade from coming in? Or who threw the babies in arms back into the fire as their mothers ran out of the building? Or who shot Mike Henry in Clarendon? Or who went to the offices of the Voice and cut out Earl Woodburn’s tongue before shooting him? Or who shot Claudie Massop after he signed a peace pact with Bucky Marshall? Or who accompanied Roy McGann as they entered Heroes Park firing shots wildly and disrupting the function being held to dedicate the monument to Sir Alexander ? Or who went down to South Side, locked up the policemen in the police station on Gold Street before going to the JLP dance to shoot it up? Or who Tony Spaulding sent into Rema to terrorize poor people and evict them public housing? There's more but that should be sufficient for now.

Thanks

[franksterr]

Re: Comrade Dudley Thompson is dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=franksterr] The &quot;YOU&quot; is American Corporate Interest represented by the CIA. The CIA does not care what party you belong to their sole goal is the removal of the Manley Government,..

How convenient. The CIA. Poor Michael. Ever the victim.</div></div>

Whether you like it or not.....Truth is TRUTH.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> if to achieve that goal it requires killing JLP members and placing blame on the PNP through media control then so be it.

Still dancing around the issue by using the passive voice in your rhetoric I see. Requires killing <span style="font-weight: bold">by whom</span> pray? Since the CIA apparently did not send their own employees from HQ in Langley to do the job on the streets of Kingston themselves, I am still waiting to hear who it is specifically that carried out this supposed mission of theirs to “kill JLP members and place the blame on the PNP”</div></div>

You obviously not reading my responses, in my very second post I stated<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CIA paying <span style="font-weight: bold">elements within the JDF to lure and kill </span>members of a community known to oppose the government</div></div> so stop waiting and start reading and comprehending.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK let me be more specific, maybe some specific cases of the mayhem from those days might allow you to stop evading the question.

What do you think, in YOUR opinion franksterr, was the party affiliation of the men who: Burned the tenement yard on Orange Lane to the ground and prevented the fire brigade from coming in? Or who threw the babies in arms back into the fire as their mothers ran out of the building? Or who shot Mike Henry in Clarendon? Or who went to the offices of the Voice and cut out Earl Woodburn’s tongue before shooting him? Or who shot Claudie Massop after he signed a peace pact with Bucky Marshall? Or who accompanied Roy McGann as they entered Heroes Park firing shots wildly and disrupting the function being held to dedicate the monument to Sir Alexander ? Or who went down to South Side, locked up the policemen in the police station on Gold Street before going to the JLP dance to shoot it up? Or who Tony Spaulding sent into Rema to terrorize poor people and evict them public housing? There's more but that should be sufficient for now.</div></div>

I am not evading nothing....I am anwering your question but are you answering mine?

Those are all good questions if you seeking justice for the victims, but if you want to find the root cause and thereby stop such things from happening in the future they are the wrong questions.

When it comes to Earl Woodburn, Mike Henry , Claudie Massop, who accompanied Roy McGann, Or who Tony Spaulding* sent into Rema to terrorize or who locked up the policemen in the police station on Gold Street, Or who threw the babies in arms back into the fire.......My Opinion isn't worth much, what is of immense value is the facts relevant to the cases I provided.

My opinion is that it is popular opinion that these people where killed by members of the opposing political faction .......I do not Know. What I do know is that the arrival of guns and ensueing violence was a CIA Covert action meant to dislodge the ruling PNP. The Particulars of who did what to whom is something that not even the courts of Jamaica was able to unravel.......All I know is that the whole thing from start to finish was orchestrated by the CIA and the Government reacted with Draconian laws - Gun Court and the Crime Suppression act/ State of emergencey.

Do You Know who these people are that did these heinous acts?

* it is news to me that tony spaulding did such acts.....how do you know?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks </div></div>

You are welcome I am sorry I could be of more help.

[remo]

Re: Comrade Dudley Thompson is dead

Dont believe everything you read on the Internet Sista Country that piece was written by a labourite ...This is a piece from the New York Times from Oct.1999.


A Killing Shocks Jamaicans Into Soul-Searching
By DAVID GONZALEZ
Published: October 18, 1999

When robbers murdered an 85-year-old woman in her Kingston home in August, what has become a routine crime in violent Jamaica soon had extraordinary repercussions.

For the victim was Rose Leon, a successful businesswoman and former Cabinet member, and her death set off a wave of confessions: not by sullen-faced killers, but by Jamaican politicians suddenly eager to apologize for creating a culture that encouraged violence as a campaign tactic and self-interest as a ruling tenet.

Men armed by rival parties turned grass-roots politics into block-by-block warfare in the 1970's and 1980's. The politicians no longer control the gunmen, but many Jamaicans lament the random criminal chaos of today as the sorry legacy of the turbulent rivalry between the Jamaica Labor Party and the People's National Party.

Rose Leon was a beloved figure whose own political career spanned decades of service to both parties. So, when a stunned nation anguished over her murder, the grief also touched off a spontaneous act of contrition from the widow of former Prime Minister Michael Manley.
Beverley Anderson Manley, a host of The Breakfast Club radio talk show, gave voice to what many people had quietly thought.
''In the middle of paying tribute to her, I said that anything that I might have done that in any way contributed to what Jamaica is today, wittingly or unwittingly, that I totally apologize to the Jamaican people,'' she said. ''I thought about how we got to a stage where you could have not only a woman prominent in society but also an elderly woman, an icon who served our country, be killed by some young guys. How did we get into such a stage of anarchy? I knew the nature of our politics. I was married to a party leader. I couldn't say I didn't know.''

Her candor prompted her co-host, Anthony Abrahams, a former Minister of Tourism and Information in the administration of Mr. Manley's rival, Prime Minister Edward Seaga, to follow suit.
Mr. Abrahams said he was willing to talk about troubling events during his long association with Mr. Seaga's Jamaica Labor Party, provided that he was given immunity. Next, Dudley Thompson, a former Minister of National Security, came on the show and apologized for his 1978 comments about the Green Bay Massacre, where soldiers killed several suspected gang members. Mr. <span style="color: #660000"> </span> Thompson, who became Security Minister shortly after the killings, <span style="color: #660000"> </span> said then that ''no angels died at Green Bay.'' Later, he learned that the victims had been set up and lured to their deaths.

''Insofar as those words mean I approve of the killings, I abjectly apologize,'' he said. ''But it is an apology for something I said, not a confession for something I did. Whoever did it has to make their own confession.''

Other mea culpas -- more minima than maxima -- have followed, although few details of past misdeeds have emerged. But the confessional wave has caught enough of the nation's imagination to prompt a call for a truth and reconciliation commission along the lines of that in South Africa, so politicians can account and atone for the past and usher in a new era.

''We were part of the process,'' Mr. Abrahams said. ''We are part of a failed state and as such we failed the country. With all the opportunity I had, I just slipped into the political system without really bucking it.''

No one has yet to propose just how a truth commission would come into being, much less function. So far, Prime Minister P. J. Patterson and former Prime Minister Seaga have rejected any such panel, saying that their parties have corrected their errors and that there are more pressing issues facing the country.

Still, a coalition of religious leaders sponsored a national ''Bawl Out'' this month to denounce the violence and corruption of the past. And Carolyn Gomes, a pediatrician who helped establish Jamaicans for Justice, an advocacy group that is studying how such a commission would work, said the people were capable of deciding for themselves.

''You can't begin a process of healing until you admit the truth and stop finger pointing,'' she said.

Indeed, the confessions have also spawned accusations. Mr. Abrahams's radio show started questioning events under the Seaga administration, most recently his party's generous help with a failed agricultural project that was run by a reputed Israeli mobster who was later convicted in southern Florida of money laundering.

Swiftly, the wall across the street from where the show is broadcast was painted with taunts cryptically suggesting that the hosts have secrets they may want to keep hidden. Mr. Abrahams dismissed the graffiti and innuendo as the kind of assault too long accepted in Jamaica.

''It was clear there has been a tribal nature to the politics,'' he said. ''In Jamaica, if a politician is caught doing something wrong, all he has to do is think of somebody on the other side who did something similar and that's the end of the argument.''

Whether the debate generates more than radio ratings remains uncertain. Trevor Munroe, a political scientist who has also apologized for his role in advising the doomed Government of Prime Minister Maurice Bishop of Grenada, said the discussion had emerged too quickly, without any sort of consultation or legislative guidance. He contrasted it with the South African process, which grew out of that nation's transitional constitution.

''It reflected reconciliation at the highest level in terms of power sharing and that is a different process than confession as a means of recrimination,' he said. ''I don't think the confession process here was preceded by any amount of networking. Here we began more spontaneously, hence it added a new dimension, political competition.''

Voters are skeptical.

''You're in an environment where politicians are lambasted all over the place,'' said Aeden Earle, an earth scientist. ''They want to position themselves as part of the new political breed. They want to distance themselves from the violence of the 70's, so they make a half-hearted confession and say they're man enough to admit to it. It's an attempt to prolong their credibility over the medium term.''

Peter Levy, an insurance company manager, said the commission was a good idea, but he saw it vanishing with each day of partisan accusations.

''It's a lost opportunity,'' he said. ''I don't think people understand half of the rottenness in our politics. And they need to understand it.''

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Comrade Dudley Thompson is dead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dont believe everything you read on the Internet Sista Country that piece was written by a labourite ...This is a piece from the New York Times from Oct.1999.
</div></div>
<span style="font-size: 17pt">The above article is about Green Bay Kill</span>ing?
Is this to dispute the essential arguments:
A. That five men were lured to Green Bay on the promise of jobs after two weeks of training.
B. Killed by members of the MIU on the orders of the GOJ.
C. That after the killing Comrade Thompson's words of comfort......something along the lines of No angels were killed at Green Bay?

[sistactry]

Re: Comrade Dudley Thompson is dead

thanks (((Remo)))) a very informative article, I will continue to read all I can, as I find this very interesting, I knew nothing of the Green Bay Massacre, and when I asked my husband about it, he said yes, this was all in the Manley, Portia days....i am just trying to draw my own conclusions,

((((Tuffy))))) thank you too for your input, I am learning from all of you~~

I know we have one thing in common, and that is the love of our people and our country...